Nerfs/upgrades all around wyvern

[Teshuvah]

In part I would absolutely agree with Oddul, Archers are not going to work well for inexperienced players. (mages dont either) But it was a welcome challenge and change to an experienced player.
I honestly do not think archers were ever supposed to be single weapon (Bow/arrow) characters. I remember, somewhere in my vague ancient brain hearing that from an arch wizard somewhere.
That archers were always supposed to be a subclass, if you will, of another weapon, like swords, etc.
So that explains why ranged training is so cheap for 1.
But it does not explain why elves dont get another skill point...
But on the other hand, elves arent always archers, they made unbelievably strong paladins back in the day....
Well you get the idea.
How do you give "archers only" archers something and not adversely effect the powerfulness of elves as other guilds/specializations?
guilds cant give "skills per level".
And you've already suggested multiple changes to the archers guild.
So if we give "archer only" classes something, do we limit their use of other weapons drastically to limit that ? That would go over like a lead balloon
See?
It's all kinda "fuzzy"....So I will stick to my original premise. "This was not hard unless you are a new player".

T

[Logwad]

It also doesn't help that we have to sink 6-7 points in spirit to be able to survive.

One thing I forgot to mention, is that despite being awkwardly split between melee, magic and range, despite being slow at xp, despite every complaint I have ever thought of, Archers are still the funnest way to play. Mages and melee'ers(sp?) bore me to tears. There is no other game where I find archery as fun.

[Jacksparow]

Personally since an arch wizard said Ranging was supposed to be a sub class. I think Archers should get a small weapon bonus (like swords every other level) so that they have 5 swords at guild level 10. nothing big, but yet helpful.

[Teshuvah]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard

Personally since an arch wizard said Ranging was supposed to be a sub class. I think Archers should get a small weapon bonus (like swords every other level) so that they have 5 swords at guild level 10. nothing big, but yet helpful.

And how do we limit that to those races that dont already have weapon bonus?

see, fuzzy... its elf archers that are the issue
halfings/humans already have the extra skill point to put into a weapon
(points to her above statements about limiting one without the other)
If we give to elfs, they use it in other guilds
if we give to archers, other races who join archers guild are unfairly given benefits...

[Salkand]

Throw a grenade in and lets start from the beginning.

[Jacksparow]

their's already a ranged bonus for elves who join archers, so why not allow them to also have a melee bonus? also I don't think it would effect other classes that already have a bonus, if you make the guild give 5 blades or swords, since no class in the game comes with either of them as a starting bonus. as for the halfling/human problem. Their's a reason they have 4 skillpoints a level, so I don't see that as a problem.

[Penny]

You're always complaining about all the heavy reagents you have to carry and you're saying that mages should get negative strength?

And naga hydras shouldn't attack faster than elves, for real. That's taking away everything we have (unless you're an elf archer because then the fat nagas won't stand a chance against you, rofl).

Originally Posted by Teshuvah

And how do we limit that to those races that dont already have weapon bonus?

see, fuzzy... its elf archers that are the issue
halfings/humans already have the extra skill point to put into a weapon
(points to her above statements about limiting one without the other)
If we give to elfs, they use it in other guilds
if we give to archers, other races who join archers guild are unfairly given benefits...

Only give the bonus to guilded elf archers.

P.S. I do not like the idea of archery being a sub-class.

[Teshuvah]

Originally Posted by Penny

Only give the bonus to guilded elf archers.

P.S. I do not like the idea of archery being a sub-class.

ARchers guild does not check your race.

Then you are going to have to pay 1k per training level like everyone else.

[Logwad]

Another thing to point out is that to give an archers guild bonus of a particular weapon (even to just elves), it forces them to use that weapon, even if they would prefer spears, barehanded, or daggers etc.

I prefer dual shield anyway now, despite being silly. Recoil is a big problem, especially with an attack that is small, but fast (recoil is the same no matter how hard you hit).

But such is the problem with skill points.

[Godhand]

The thing I hate most about archers is that they can't fire arrows at monsters that are standing on doorways, certain rugs, and trees. Buggy + low damage = slow xp gain,bad pk,impossible to win any lq where fighting is involved.

The arrow is what determines most of the damage when you fire a bow. Silver bolts and arrows of slay demon are probably the best ammos in the game, against demon and undead, which most of the high lvl monster are. When you compare them to most good lvl 20+ weaps, they don't come close. It probably takes an archer longer to kill and undead monster using silver bolts than a meleer of the same lvl using a orcish stone axe. Ranged weapons do way to little damage.

Also and hybrid archers suck, no point in wasting skill points in a melee skill just to get kill by recoil. Its much better to put those skill points in lore,meditation,elements,arts for resists and spells like teleport and paralyze. It will allow you to practically survive anywhere. Dam the healing nerf, cause minor healing would be very helpful here.

[Beckhan]

Originally Posted by Logwad

It also doesn't help that we have to sink 6-7 points in spirit to be able to survive.

One thing I forgot to mention, is that despite being awkwardly split between melee, magic and range, despite being slow at xp, despite every complaint I have ever thought of, Archers are still the funnest way to play. Mages and melee'ers(sp?) bore me to tears. There is no other game where I find archery as fun.

Well there you go! that would be the perfect fix. Make it so elves that join archers guild get points in spirit so that an elf at master archer level gets a bonus of 7 spirit.. say it's because elves are in tune with that realm of magic. That would give the elves at least one route to shine in and lesson the gap between human/hobbit bonuses.

And Godhand, I agree with all three main points you make there. The bug will hopefully be fixed eventually, and yes an arher that also casts or meleees jsut doesn't work with an elf. But it shouldnt have to. Being an archer should be equally awesome in it's specialty ones everything is balanced.

Originally Posted by Teshuvah

ARchers guild does not check your race.

Then you are going to have to pay 1k per training level like everyone else.

What about how wood elves get +5 ranged and high elves get +2 ranged when joining? Why not give ALL elves a progressivey increasing bonus in spirit magic or meditation or healing to balance out how much easier a human or hobbit can become an archer.. that would solve the problem and encourage elves to mainly be archer but whats more is they would be the best at being an archer.

[Godhand]

A better fix is to increase all the arrows' damage in the game. Since archers kill very slow, and arrows have more of an effect on damage than bows, wizards can add better arrows into the game, the thing is, you can't compare arrows to other arrows cause they are all weak. You have to compare arrows to those of melee weapons, maybe not as powerful as melee weapons but they should be close. Since archers fire slow and have to stand still to shoot and even when you shoot theres not a guarenteed chance it will hit the monster. It won't make archers overpowered at all, it would just bring them closer to mages, and meleers.

[Logwad]

One thing I would be interested in seeing is a massive reduction in the rate of fire for projectiles, along with a massive increase in damage. One of the many effects this would have is to make range not very useful for masses of weak monsters, so a secondary weapon would be useful. Plus it would allow archers to shoot, run, shoot, run etc without sacrificing your "damage per second". It would at least be interesting to try out. For testing purposes, it could probably be done to just blowguns, or slings (both of which no one ever uses anymore) to see if players like it. It would also make accuracy actually matter again (we can't hit anything in pk anyways, so no problem there)

Another interesting note, is if the archers guild gave spirit magic, we could actually also choose to become enchanting specialists. But this would also have to have a change to the spells along with it.

Enchant weapon being changed to be based just on spirit, as well as possibly depend on what kind of weapon you are enchanting and how high your skill is for using that weapon. Somewhat similar to forging. It would also encourage you to have a secondary weapon so you could make money, at the expense of being even less survivable in combat(You'd need a healer/resist mage). Enchant armor would being based on earth. Give dwarfs some starting earth skill, and they would be the primary armor enchanters. In the end, this would encourage trading with others, and would stop the current situation of "I'm level 32, have 32 earth and spirit and I'm the best at everything no questions asked". A level 25 who has a weapon skill of whips, would be able to enchant whips better than the level 32 who can enchant clubs really well.


And while we're wishing, I also want a pony. ._.

[Jacksparow]

Originally Posted by Logwad

And while we're wishing, I also want a pony. ._.

whatever happened to the Domed house.

But also I would like to see the weapon/earth (earth for armor) be needed for enchanting gear, because it is a bit sad that anyone with 25 spirit/earth can enchant anything even if they have no skill whatsoever in it. But alas that would require the work of Rhialto, and he's busy with more important things.

[Warcow]

Originally Posted by Logwad

One thing I would be interested in seeing is a massive reduction in the rate of fire for projectiles, along with a massive increase in damage.

Now, that's an idea! It doesn't make sense how you can fire out 10 arrows per second

...or swing a massive diamond sword 10 times per second.

It might be worth it to extend this idea to all weapon skills, because at high levels, we're attacking waaay too fast, and the 'fast attacking races' like elves and pixies become all but worthless at high levels because their attack speed max out so early.

[Tudwal]

I've often thought that Rogues need something.

The ability to train sneaking would help, as Arilou said (I think) that sneaking would only help upon reaching higher levels (higher than the currently achievable 5 or 6). You could restrict this to Rogues by having the trainer only accessible to guild members. I've seen backstab on R's to do list, which would help, but only in concert with sneak. If the demon knows you're coming, it'll be hard to backstab him.

Another idea is disarm traps as guild special ability. Give Rogues automatic trap searching (like elves), but also give them an automatic chance to disarm the trap. Both the chance to find the trap and the chance to disarm could increase with guild level.

Increased attack speed when using blades would make also sense, but I'm not sure how to implement that without creating balance problems.

[Frosten]

Originally Posted by Penny

And naga hydras shouldn't attack faster than elves, for real. That's taking away everything we have (unless you're an elf archer because then the fat nagas won't stand a chance against you, rofl).

Are you serious? they have 5 heads, i'd hope they'd be able to attack faster than elves. the strong attacks of hydras make up for the lack of resists that a naga can cast, which would take up quite a few skill points in life, fire, etc..and they cannot wear any armors that give + to resistance (besides the death resist from platinum helmets). That's why hydras are known to be perfect with resist mages. I think they are good the way they are...their slow movement speed already made them easier to PK

[Warcow]

Originally Posted by Frosten

..and they cannot wear any armors that give + to resistance (besides the death resist from platinum helmets). That's why hydras are known to be perfect with resist mages. I think they are good the way they are...their slow movement speed already made them easier to PK

Monk hydras can't even wear plat helms...but they could wear one plat girdle.

also, the elec helmets gives some shock resist, but again, unwearable by monk nagas.

the speed thing however...there are quite a few ways to get around that