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  #21  
Old 04-15-2010, 02:02 AM
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Teshuvah Teshuvah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellandra View Post
Well, what I was more referring to is...

Why should the whipsman half of rangers get any bonus to air/death? As it says above, conjurers-magic and whipsman-melee. I think the death/air bonus for whipsman condradicts the proposed focus of the guild. I think a more solidified version of what I was trying to say in that long post above was: Ex. Axeman's, a comparable guild to the whipsman half of rangers, gets a bonus to basically every skill a meleer has at it's core (fw, healing skill, strength, AND even a secondary offensive type). However, the whipsman get...bonus to a magical element...

It seems to me that you could further differentiate between guilds by only giving the conjurers the death/air bonus and they would focus on magic whip as their weapon. Then, give whippers a bonus to more melee related skills (like what axeman's get). Whippers could be the ones who would take more advantage of the guild whips, normal whips, blade spell scrolls etc. This keeps each half in their respective specialty.

Also, I used a magic whip with only the death bonus that I had from the guild when my whip of many thongs broke. I found that the magic whip, with only the 2 or 3 death bonus, was way more effective against anything that didn't have the high magic resist...It was kind of discouraging Lol...I don't know if this means magic whip is OP or something *shrug*
Yeah this really gets to the core of the problem. This isnt two guilds, it is one guild , split to show that it could be done but never needed to be split at all, its a whip guild.

I think this whole spitting of the guilds thing will be better served later with the mage guild split.

What death gives to a magic whip is different than what whip skill gives to a magic whip also, so how its effectiveness will totally depend on what you are fighting. Magic Whip is what it is, magic whip lol With it, there isnt a huge need for other whips anyway unless they are highly specialized, elemental or something like that.
  #22  
Old 04-15-2010, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah View Post
I think this whole spitting of the guilds thing will be better served later with the mage guild split.


Sorry, had to comment.
  #23  
Old 04-15-2010, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabroz View Post


Sorry, had to comment.
Old news, really. I'm still interested in what exactly in particular is planned, beside that there probably will be an elemental split, but that's another topic completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah View Post
Yeah this really gets to the core of the problem. This isnt two guilds, it is one guild , split to show that it could be done but never needed to be split at all, its a whip guild.
So, why not either make the two sides more different, or just merge them? The only significant difference at this point appears to be the whipsmen get more hp and conjurers get more sp, which is odd if they are supposed to fight basically the same way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah View Post
What death gives to a magic whip is different than what whip skill gives to a magic whip also, so how its effectiveness will totally depend on what you are fighting. Magic Whip is what it is, magic whip lol With it, there isnt a huge need for other whips anyway unless they are highly specialized, elemental or something like that.
Doesn't the fact that Magic Whip precludes the practical use of other whips make it unbalanced? Magic Whip is one of the cheapest spells in the game, but it outpaces other whips. You can buy Magic Whip at, say, level 1, and use it for the rest of the game with no difficulty. If you go out a buy a sword from a store, you'll be using mithril or something later on. If you get firebolt or acid dart at some point, you will probably use blizzard, ice storm, fireball, or firespray more later on. There are no reagents, and you don't have to worry about breakage. The guild encourages the use of Magic Whip, so there is no reason to not use it, but why is it the de facto king of all whips? Wouldn't a "normal" expensive whip that is better than a powerful magic whip be balanced because of cost and breakage? It makes some sense flavor-wise, but doesn't seem healthy mechanics-wise.
  #24  
Old 04-15-2010, 07:51 AM
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I would disagree, Magic whip is very expensive if you consider that it takes skill points to make it close to as useful as a diamond weapon, and all the training costs that goes with that. A diamond weapon is much stronger because you don't need to train skill points to make your weapon better. All you have to do is buy it from a smith player. Those skill points in death magic could have been put in strength or find-weakness instead.
  #25  
Old 04-15-2010, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeofar View Post
Old news, really. I'm still interested in what exactly in particular is planned, beside that there probably will be an elemental split, but that's another topic completely.


So, why not either make the two sides more different, or just merge them? The only significant difference at this point appears to be the whipsmen get more hp and conjurers get more sp, which is odd if they are supposed to fight basically the same way.

Doesn't the fact that Magic Whip precludes the practical use of other whips make it unbalanced? Magic Whip is one of the cheapest spells in the game, but it outpaces other whips. You can buy Magic Whip at, say, level 1, and use it for the rest of the game with no difficulty. If you go out a buy a sword from a store, you'll be using mithril or something later on. If you get firebolt or acid dart at some point, you will probably use blizzard, ice storm, fireball, or firespray more later on. There are no reagents, and you don't have to worry about breakage. The guild encourages the use of Magic Whip, so there is no reason to not use it, but why is it the de facto king of all whips? Wouldn't a "normal" expensive whip that is better than a powerful magic whip be balanced because of cost and breakage? It makes some sense flavor-wise, but doesn't seem healthy mechanics-wise.
No not at all actually, there are times and places that you can't cast and whip users would be wise to keep a stash of real whips and use them regularly to know their strengths. We just need more whips to give more options.
  #26  
Old 04-15-2010, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durango View Post
I would disagree, Magic whip is very expensive if you consider that it takes skill points to make it close to as useful as a diamond weapon, and all the training costs that goes with that. A diamond weapon is much stronger because you don't need to train skill points to make your weapon better. All you have to do is buy it from a smith player. Those skill points in death magic could have been put in strength or find-weakness instead.
There are no such thing as forged whips/diamond whips. There are platinum whips and other elemental whips etc available though that fit what you are saying. There are also guild whips and other store bought whips that are available.
  #27  
Old 04-15-2010, 05:13 PM
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So, are there still plans to keep changing rangers guild or ...?
  #28  
Old 04-15-2010, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellandra View Post
So, are there still plans to keep changing rangers guild or ...?
Yes things are still being discussed.
  #29  
Old 04-16-2010, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellandra View Post
Also, I used a magic whip with only the death bonus that I had from the guild when my whip of many thongs broke. I found that the magic whip, with only the 2 or 3 death bonus, was way more effective against anything that didn't have the high magic resist...It was kind of discouraging Lol...I don't know if this means magic whip is OP or something *shrug*
This would have to be very recent testing in order to be meaningful, i.e. like in the last 2 weeks or so and for both magic whip and regular whips.
  #30  
Old 04-16-2010, 02:18 PM
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Everything I've placed on this thread has been tested/thought of within the last two weeks. Magic whip included
  #31  
Old 04-22-2010, 08:20 PM
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Just a thought why not make the magic whip skill not reliant on the "whips" skill at all. Lower the power of it and make it rely on the 2 element skills.

This would allow the slight segregation your after between the 2 sides and definately make shop bought whips etc a much more used item.


Also on a side note I do agree that as a Ranger I would not fancy higher levels with no cloak. Your answer to just wear a heros ammy in place of dpro for training was fine. Except that pretty much every monster with dpro has fear so going near any high level monster will be death. (this could be changed back later on with an expanded player base and better party systems once resist mages etc are common place) but until then perhaps some extra resist items for rangers should be considered.

But as I see it alot of changes your making currently are kind of catch 22, players won't test too much or spend too much time making characters to find they will be useless in a month or 2 and you don't have enough regular players to test builds and parties and make the changes a major success all round.
  #32  
Old 04-22-2010, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fikolmij View Post
Just a thought why not make the magic whip skill not reliant on the "whips" skill at all. Lower the power of it and make it rely on the 2 element skills.

This would allow the slight segregation your after between the 2 sides and definately make shop bought whips etc a much more used item.
Magic Whip already relies on more than 1 skill.


Going without a cloak is your other suggestion?
Ok that's not going to happen anymore than monks are getting shoes.

But stay tuned, great changes are in store for Rangers guild that were player suggested.
  #33  
Old 07-09-2010, 04:26 PM
Ellandra Ellandra is offline
 

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So about those rangers guild changes that were on their way...

There's this recurring bad tendency to start updating things then drop them off halfway and start a new project...
  #34  
Old 07-09-2010, 05:17 PM
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A recurring bad tendency... Exactly what game have you been playing? We almost never go into the specifics of what we are working on. Occasionally we drop a few tidbits about things we'd like to see happen way down the road, but we keep the things we're working on private. More so, not only have we been quiet about what we work on but, for a long period of time, we'd get things done too quickly to be any other way - We'd bring up a subject to each other, talk about it for a day (or so) and then finish it a few days later only to move on to the next subject that one of us wanted to broach. Thus I'm really puzzled by what it is you think we stopped working on at the halfway point when this is one of the rare exceptions where we not only told you about something in advance, but tried to include you in the process. Feel free to enlighten me though.
  #35  
Old 07-09-2010, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arilou View Post
A recurring bad tendency... Exactly what game have you been playing? We almost never go into the specifics of what we are working on. Occasionally we drop a few tidbits about things we'd like to see happen way down the road, but we keep the things we're working on private. More so, not only have we been quiet about what we work on but, for a long period of time, we'd get things done too quickly to be any other way - We'd bring up a subject to each other, talk about it for a day (or so) and then finish it a few days later only to move on to the next subject that one of us wanted to broach. Thus I'm really puzzled by what it is you think we stopped working on at the halfway point when this is one of the rare exceptions where we not only told you about something in advance, but tried to include you in the process. Feel free to enlighten me though.
Especially since a bunch of what was discussed was implemented already and skills were changed, weapon damage was updated etc. And we always have a time of watching changes before others are implemented.
But you apparently are playing a different game and not playing much Wyvern.
We are definitely not done as Arilou said. But I'll wait for your answer to Arilou, it should be good.
Then I will take my 20 lashes for including you in the process only to take silly remarks like this.
  #36  
Old 07-15-2010, 08:47 PM
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I have some suggestions and thoughts on this topic as I have played Turpin (Whipsman) quite a bit.

As far as the Whipsman side of the guild goes i would have to say +5 to strength would be the most balanced change i could think of to that side of the guild. People are saying that its a dead guild, but most people dont even play rangers or even try to Hof them, get gear, and get properly trained skills. It's definitely NOT too underpowered if it is underpowered. This morning i won the Dagore LQ with cacid, vessen and another mage. In my opinion the trick is to actually play and level a ranger, and see that after some of the changes that have gone through over the past few months, have indeed made Whipsman viable.

One problem i had/have however, which has been discussed, is whip durability. To be somewhat successful, one almost always has to use vamp blade for LQ's and whatnot. I broke 3 brand new store bought whips during the Dagore LQ while casting vamp blade with 21 death (16 trained).

Yes enchanting does increase durability on whips along with damage but then you cannot use vampire blade. So that leaves reg store bought whips with low durability, and plat whip.

Just some thoughts to throw out there and chew on.

Also as far as fear immunity, skull shield+bravery pot, or hero ammy=fear immunity (90% cap or w/e).
  #37  
Old 07-16-2010, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oachu View Post
I have some suggestions and thoughts on this topic as I have played Turpin (Whipsman) quite a bit.

As far as the Whipsman side of the guild goes i would have to say +5 to strength would be the most balanced change i could think of to that side of the guild. People are saying that its a dead guild, but most people dont even play rangers or even try to Hof them, get gear, and get properly trained skills. It's definitely NOT too underpowered if it is underpowered. This morning i won the Dagore LQ with cacid, vessen and another mage. In my opinion the trick is to actually play and level a ranger, and see that after some of the changes that have gone through over the past few months, have indeed made Whipsman viable.

One problem i had/have however, which has been discussed, is whip durability. To be somewhat successful, one almost always has to use vamp blade for LQ's and whatnot. I broke 3 brand new store bought whips during the Dagore LQ while casting vamp blade with 21 death (16 trained).

Yes enchanting does increase durability on whips along with damage but then you cannot use vampire blade. So that leaves reg store bought whips with low durability, and plat whip.

Just some thoughts to throw out there and chew on.

Also as far as fear immunity, skull shield+bravery pot, or hero ammy=fear immunity (90% cap or w/e).
Whip durability was improved recently (in the past few months) But we will definitely take another look at it again compared to other weapons of the same damage level etc and comment again. While whips are supposed to b less durable than say a sword of the same level, we will double check and make sure it's not too low, check prices etc. It maybe a case of choices, use vampire blade and you're going to go through weapons faster or use other weapons that are more durable, but we'll see. Thanks.
  #38  
Old 07-16-2010, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oachu View Post

One problem i had/have however, which has been discussed, is whip durability. To be somewhat successful, one almost always has to use vamp blade for LQ's and whatnot. I broke 3 brand new store bought whips during the Dagore LQ while casting vamp blade with 21 death (16 trained).

Yes enchanting does increase durability on whips along with damage but then you cannot use vampire blade. So that leaves reg store bought whips with low durability, and plat whip.
I just went through store whips ad guild whips. Yes, they were extremely fragile several months ago to the point of being really un-usuable , and the durability was hugely improved several months ago when we went through weapons and fixed old stats that no longer are viable. They are now equal to, or greater than the durability of weapons of the same price range/damage.
You may have some old ones that do not have the newer durable stats. So the only thing I can suggest in this area is that you purchase some new ones and see if you see an improvement. If you don't then we are back to, "choices"..
Magic whip, go through cheaper whips faster with vamp blade, dont use vamp blade etc.
  #39  
Old 10-30-2010, 11:29 PM
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Minor change for conjurers.
Currently:
+1 in whip at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10
+1 in Air magic at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9
+1 in Death magic at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10
+1 in meditation at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10

As you can see, they get a massive boost on even lvls, and a near worthless boost on odd lvls. I know you are not done playing with them, but could you even up the skill distribution to 2 skills every lvl?

Whip and Death both increase damage, so they should be on different lvls. Air and Death are both magic skills, so they should be on opposite lvls. This leaves us with:
whip & air
death & meditation

Since whip is more powerful than death, whip should get the even lvl.
Suggested:
+1 in whip at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10
+1 in Air magic at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10
+1 in Death magic at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9
+1 in meditation at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9
  #40  
Old 11-01-2010, 05:31 AM
Jacksparow Jacksparow is offline
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Hmm. Well my opinion may not be up to par with most as I haven't been the most active lately, and arn't 100% sure of some things I'm about to say. Trust me if I had more of an idea I'd argue my point to annoyance (most arch wizards can agree with me on this). I never quite found the whipsman side to be equal to most guilds, because in all honesty it is completely underpowered to most if not all guilds as a melee aspect of the game.

Why not to be a whipsman
-No Cloak
-Only 50% to hp
-Negatives in enchant spirit and mind
-No fighting bonus aside from weapon
-Most Whips suck compared to diamond/elec weapons available in all other close combat guilds.

Lets put this in perspective. Every Melee oriented guild has some form of countering for lack of armor or HP. The weapon bonus as discussed is completely fine at 10, and shouldn't be changed.

Monks Guild
has 0 HP bonus
makes up for it with 20 Healing and 20 mind (Mana shield is cake)
Also you're unable to wear boots (similer to the cloak on ranger's)
makes up for it with 10 dodge

Rogue's Guild - I find this under par with most guilds too
30% HP bonus (lower then Ranger's, but allowed all armour slots)
Makes up for HP with 10 dodge
has no incantation negative making it easier to use healing spells

Caveman's Guild
100% HP (TANK)
The HP here alone make's this guild an easy to start off guild, because it's hard to die on a giant with 500HP, though I think a small healing bonus might be helpful for this guild seeing as it too has no bonuses other then it's 10 clubs (though the HP can be debated as multiple stat bonuses)

Axemen
50% HP (Making it equal to rangers)
BUT
+5 Blacksmith (some people train 1 to see their weapon's status)
+5 Strength
+5 Find weakness
+5 Healing
CAN WEAR ALL ARMOUR

Paladin's Guild
70% HP (already better then ranger's Guild)
But on top of the HP they also get
+5 Strength
+10 Life magic (with no incantation negative)


Now for The finisher. My opinion on what should be changed given these aspects of the game.
HP bonus could be tweaked to being up to 60% bonus (A small thing, but still makes it lower then most. debatable)
+5 healing (odds)
+10 Dodge (for both whipsman, and conjurer to make up for lack of cloak [see monk])
+5 strength (even)

Those bonuses some may think make it overpowered, but comparing it side by side to the axemen's guild even with my inputted bonuses make it slightly worse with the lack of 5 FW (but it has 10% more HP to make up for that).

But I may get a typical response of "You haven't played recently you don't know what you're talking about". But it's never a bad time to give input on a topic that the wizards themselves feel needs to be addressed.
 


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