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  #21  
Old 01-01-2012, 01:01 AM
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I just have one question for this whole post: What version of DnD is this "Tier system" based off of? I am a 3.0/3.5 DM and I have never seen anything like this. Is this something from the actual rulebooks or is this something put together by someone else entirely?
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  #22  
Old 01-01-2012, 06:52 PM
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I've never seen it either, not too hard to track the general idea of it though, just imo I think this is going to be very hard to apply to wyvern, dnd revolves around restrictions wyverns all about freedom. As for what's more op than others im too dated on the game to have a valid opinion on where what stands
  #23  
Old 01-01-2012, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igorith View Post
I just have one question for this whole post: What version of DnD is this "Tier system" based off of? I am a 3.0/3.5 DM and I have never seen anything like this. Is this something from the actual rulebooks or is this something put together by someone else entirely?
It's based on 3.5e, and player-created. ^^

I can dig up a few links if you'd like, as well - including explanations of why each class is placed where it is.

In fact, here you go - Why each class is in it's tier.
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  #24  
Old 01-01-2012, 09:48 PM
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I figured I might as well throw in my thoughts on this. Some people seem to be hating on the humans. My main is Riordan and im sure a lot of you know who I am from "Town Crier" shouts about LQ's and quests and such. But yes I think if anything in this tier system then the Axeman, Cavemen, Paladin, and Mage are the tier 1's.

Axeman and Cavemen make superb tanks and with a bit of healing skill and some high armor they can absorb an insane amount of damage and barely feel it as much as other classes. Frost giant axemen and stone giant and dwarven cavemen are all nice choices. (i'd throw in human as an axeman since Rio is an axer but all he does is hit hard, and fast. he is not a big tank by any means compared to fellow giants.)

Paladins are a bit of a jack-of-all-trades here as they hit hard with a nice sword, and can take damage and they can even heal themselves (like spell heal, please exclude pots)! they can cast some nice healing spells and can mana shield quite efficiently allowing them to make quite a nice cleric/warrior class.

Mages are just.... I'm not going to waste my breath they just need strength to carry stuff.... anything else they can do. XD
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  #25  
Old 01-02-2012, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Baurus View Post
I figured I might as well throw in my thoughts on this. Some people seem to be hating on the humans. My main is Riordan and im sure a lot of you know who I am from "Town Crier" shouts about LQ's and quests and such. But yes I think if anything in this tier system then the Axeman, Cavemen, Paladin, and Mage are the tier 1's.

Axeman and Cavemen make superb tanks and with a bit of healing skill and some high armor they can absorb an insane amount of damage and barely feel it as much as other classes. Frost giant axemen and stone giant and dwarven cavemen are all nice choices. (i'd throw in human as an axeman since Rio is an axer but all he does is hit hard, and fast. he is not a big tank by any means compared to fellow giants.)

Paladins are a bit of a jack-of-all-trades here as they hit hard with a nice sword, and can take damage and they can even heal themselves (like spell heal, please exclude pots)! they can cast some nice healing spells and can mana shield quite efficiently allowing them to make quite a nice cleric/warrior class.

Mages are just.... I'm not going to waste my breath they just need strength to carry stuff.... anything else they can do. XD
Aha! We're making progress now, I think.
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  #26  
Old 01-02-2012, 08:08 PM
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I'm not trying to stray from the original post topic, but isn't a large part of DnD class power/potency up to the discretion of the DM? If a player is too overpowered, you add something to gameplay to sort-of cripple them, and if a player is too underpowered, you add something to gameplay to make them more powerful. I've heard this same sort of idea that you're talking about from other 3.5 DMs, but to me this kinda seems like you assume the DM you're playing with doesn't have any common sense. When I hear this kinda of thing, I get kinda confused as to why so many people seem hell-bent on maxing their damage output.
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  #27  
Old 01-02-2012, 09:32 PM
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Hello... i want to talk about what for me was a tier 1 (tier 1+ but by far!)...

Halfling-Conjurers.

My main alt was named Hail, l think he was lvl 30 by the time i quit, I made it to the 6th best Halfling and top 50 players... or did i get lvl 31?? i don't remember honestly, it's been so long...

Any way back to the point. My internet connection by the time i used to play was terrible slow so i had to relay on a strong combination of "REALLY REALLY hard to kill" and "easy to play". After LVL 16, lvling up with this combination was a piece of cake!, perfect mix between additional mana (for mana shield) death bonus (for magic whip and vampire blade) and low magic skill penalization. The fire, shock or cold blade used to be really usefull!! i think i used fire blade on my magic whip. Oh! an be able to bless your full equipment!! god bless BLESS (and resist curse)!!!! I dont know if it was a bug, but ranges did were able to use Platinum armor.

After getting to HOLF i was able to be 100% immune to fire, cold and shock recoil and nearly immune to curse all at the same time while holding on 2 acid resist rings and perfect dodge equipment *i did enjoyed doing RD solo missions a lot . I didn't use scrolls (ress scroll now and then when stuffs went wrong), and only used mana potions for LQ or situations of really bad lag. (sorry i think i also used str potions, i don't remember that well :S)
My first alt whit this set was actually a human that was banned... and i must say, the Halfling-Summoner was way more effective.

I tested every race and nearly every guild. my overall ranking is:
-Mages are fun to play... but when you have a slow internet connection they die just too easily (Halfling, humman or pixie tier 2+)...
-Stone giants are easy to play (cave man tier 2+)... but there is not much thinking regarding how to use the skill points and how to set your grow strategy.
-Paladin human used to be strong till they took out healing (used to be 2+, by the time i took off -3)...
-Axeman, fun and easy to play melee guild, a little more tricky than caveman and need more thinking (tier 2). Nevertheless if melee is what you want, i think caveman will win the fight.
-Rogues, i think i wasn't able to fully understand their hidden potential, same with monks raskasha, humman or halfling (tier -4)...
-Monks hydra on the other hand... that was fun to play! but been 2x2 size for me was too much of a problem, but i think with a faster internet connection this should also be a wining combination (tier 1- or 2+)
-finally Archers... for me archers is a guild you need to be role playing in order to enjoy, they just suck really bad, by far archers are the worst guild...

To end, about halfling Conjurers...
Downside is that I didn't kill as fast as I wanted. Was able to win few LQ though... but comparing with other players at my lvl I think I was a slow killer... But it's a small prize to pay if you are able to stay alive.
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Last edited by Unknown : 01-02-2012 at 10:08 PM.
  #28  
Old 01-02-2012, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
I disagree. I think they look quite nice.



Personal preference.

Oh, and don't forget that you have to use tiny armor when you're a halfling as well. Makes things twice as expensive (and before you throw out 'shrink spell', the mage guild's robes and hat cannot be shrunk, along with other certain items I believe).
Personally, to me, the appearance of the character does not really matter. I am happy as long as they are just pure awesome in their stats and the abilities they provide.

I AM GLAD, that some things cannot be shrunk or made bigger. This ensures, that I dont destroy them! I think, its a good thing that we have certain items in different price categories, no matter the cost( unless its insane).

When I was playing my halfing, I seemed to have overcome many obstacles. The spell system in wyvern is very helpful, for negating much of the obstacles that we have from Wyvern,

For me, my top tier races so far would be, Pixie, Naga, Halfing, Giants, Dwarfs, and Raks.

Also, I think one of the best classes in the game would be , monks, mages, and maybe ...rogues..
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  #29  
Old 01-02-2012, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Akando View Post
I'm kind of bored, so I thought I'd post my two-cents about Archers, because they're the only guild I ever focused on.

Its been a while since I last played my Archer, but based on my personal experience and opinion, Archers at their best would be Tier 4.

"Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well."

In my experience an Archer was only able to perform "well" when the environment allowed a wide range of movement. With an open area, an Archer can angle their shots to hit their enemy, and dodge and avoid potential risks and attack from a new position.

Outside of these circumstances an Archer is at a handicap, and any other class would be better.

In PvP, an Archer is supremely out classed, because enemies are constantly moving, and the Archer must remain stationary in order to attack.

In RDs, an Archer has fewer avenues in which to run, and often times has to lure opponents into a firing area, which isn't safe. There is also the situation of going down stairs to the next lvl. Clearing that first room is either difficult or tedious, and most of the time you have to find creative ways to deal with it.

No one ever wanted to RD with me, so I can't comment on working with a group in an RD.

In LQs, an Archer struggles working with team mates for a few reasons. Archers avoid damage altogether. I self casted Mana shield as a means to boost survivability, but Archers are too squishy to sit and take hits (unless you have exact resists for a certain enemy, but even then that isn't enough, especially late game and LQs, lol). If spells are flying around from Melee characters engaging a LQ Boss, the Archer has to often dodge those enemy spells, and whenever an Archer is moving, they cannot attack, thus any possible DPS an Archer could do is cut down every time they need to move.

In PVE Areas, where Monsters and Spawns are predictable, an Archer can succeed. There is a major difference between success and greatness though.

I cant say anything about pure damage output of an Archer vs. X Guild, but it seems like I could never do as much damage as others. In one of the few LQs I participated in, I was a Lvl 26 Human Archer beaten by a lvl 21 Naga (Monk I think). Elven Archer would do more damage, but I don't know if the Racial + Guild Race Bonus would change things that much.
I really admire some of the archers, that we have here! Even if I burned their arrows at one point...

I think a melee type class and an archer would work well, and maybe a mage(Resist mage would be nice).

Seeing an archer kill a ghast so fast...is so cool 0_0
Even though I can burn em to death fast.. but still 0_0
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  #30  
Old 01-02-2012, 11:02 PM
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Higher level mages usually aren't easy to kill... I never died once to monsters since I joined mages guild, only when PKing. But are they tier 1 or tier 2? Because they can have very high survivability, well rounded with all their spells, and with sandstorm being strengthened they can even deal reasonable cut (melee) damage. They seem so well rounded at high levels that a low level mage is tier 2 and high level one is tier 1. (Only applicable to humans and halflings since the extra skill points makes a very high difference to a mage compared to other classes). Any other race as a mage would be stuck as tier 2 it seems.

As for rogues, their ability is not tanking so stay away from that.
Rogues are more of a support class, they can have very high DPS and reasonable survivability when in a group. What tier does a high DPS and support class (lock picking, scouting) belong?

As for this archer nonsense, when/if the game gets back up I am going to create an amazing one! I will aim for being a tier 2 archer in terms of strength.
But yeah, most archers appear to be a tier 4.
  #31  
Old 01-02-2012, 11:34 PM
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Draco, i think Conjurers are better than Mages. I did spend hardcore years of playing with both types (as they are my favorites) and in terms of survival and killing speed a magicwhip beets up any fireball, DB, thunderstorm etc...

Only reason i lost PK against mages like MikeN... was because of something I think is a mistake on the game... be unable to avoid other players to cast and dispel protections on you... in fact i think you should only be able to cast protection on some one else if it's part of your party or a NPC (it doesn't make sense that a life spell is a weapon, unless they add the Holy spell, or you cast cure on Undeads). As i said before... i have a slow internet connection, and for Mike was as easy as hit 1 button and BOOM! bye bye protections + super lag killing ball.

Down size of Mages is that they generate too much lag... also i got tired of burning stuffs... but they are super fun to play with... killing stuffs with fear,or try to mind control monsters

So for me mages are a 2+ not a tier 1... as they are not good in everything.
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  #32  
Old 01-03-2012, 01:36 AM
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Unknown,

Main point: ---It sounds like you didn't get to play as a mage effectively because of your slow internet---

One thing I can't accurately comment on is "current" damage potential of mages. Before I retired as a combat character it was still possible to cast multiples of fireball, frostwave, blizzard and so on... I wasn't wanting to come off as egotistical and brag about myself in my previous post to support my claims but here it goes. When I last played I was casting so many spells at once that, as long as the monster wasn't too fire/cold/shock resistant, I believe I could outdamage most melees. I would carry about 200 mana potions because I'd be casting 7 fireballs 7 blizzards 7 frost waves, firefrost, and a cone/beam spell all at once and my meditation just could not keep up. I never experienced any lag from this though and it probably slowed the server down but I never noticed it. While dealing all this damage (3-4 different types at once) I wasn't even receiving damage since I don't have to sit next to the enemy to hurt it and if it came near me I had 50 dodging anyways (dual wielding shields is awesome). On a few occasions I had to "tank" a LQ boss because players had trapped me in the corner next to it. I managed to survive with, what most players consider, low hp/sp since I am a human.

As for PKing, I rarely died since I had speed spell+invisibility spell cast. 50 dodging and dancing in my own spells would scare melees off me. I rarely killed said pixiemage cause he is a quick one. He got me more than I got him due to death ray. Mage vs mage were long battles and I would just trap them in earth walls then shoot acid dart at them.

I agree that you should only be allowed to resist players in your group and this may have been fixed since I last played. I never used this tactic as it was not a real win in my book. Lots of people tried this on me and I just always had a finger on my alias to resist all.

I HoFed as a ranger on this account and had 2 other rangers so I know rangers are quite powerful too and I would rank them in tier 2 as they have very high DPS. They have limited damage though. Use any other whip than magic whip and their DPS drops drastically. I was able to deal magic, fire, cold, shock, and acid damage effectively as a mage.

This was my thought process behind my previous post that mages could be tier 1.

As for burning stuff... I was almost always broke on this character.
  #33  
Old 01-03-2012, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dracco View Post
Unknown,

Main point: ---It sounds like you didn't get to play as a mage effectively because of your slow internet---

One thing I can't accurately comment on is "current" damage potential of mages. Before I retired as a combat character it was still possible to cast multiples of fireball, frostwave, blizzard and so on... I wasn't wanting to come off as egotistical and brag about myself in my previous post to support my claims but here it goes. When I last played I was casting so many spells at once that, as long as the monster wasn't too fire/cold/shock resistant, I believe I could outdamage most melees. I would carry about 200 mana potions because I'd be casting 7 fireballs 7 blizzards 7 frost waves, firefrost, and a cone/beam spell all at once and my meditation just could not keep up. I never experienced any lag from this though and it probably slowed the server down but I never noticed it. While dealing all this damage (3-4 different types at once) I wasn't even receiving damage since I don't have to sit next to the enemy to hurt it and if it came near me I had 50 dodging anyways (dual wielding shields is awesome). On a few occasions I had to "tank" a LQ boss because players had trapped me in the corner next to it. I managed to survive with, what most players consider, low hp/sp since I am a human.

As for PKing, I rarely died since I had speed spell+invisibility spell cast. 50 dodging and dancing in my own spells would scare melees off me. I rarely killed said pixiemage cause he is a quick one. He got me more than I got him due to death ray. Mage vs mage were long battles and I would just trap them in earth walls then shoot acid dart at them.

I agree that you should only be allowed to resist players in your group and this may have been fixed since I last played. I never used this tactic as it was not a real win in my book. Lots of people tried this on me and I just always had a finger on my alias to resist all.

I HoFed as a ranger on this account and had 2 other rangers so I know rangers are quite powerful too and I would rank them in tier 2 as they have very high DPS. They have limited damage though. Use any other whip than magic whip and their DPS drops drastically. I was able to deal magic, fire, cold, shock, and acid damage effectively as a mage.

This was my thought process behind my previous post that mages could be tier 1.

As for burning stuff... I was almost always broke on this character.
We have one fireball that is weaker than our 5-7. Dragon breath is also weaker. Mage's fireball and blizzard will now do damage to themselves.

When we were able to damage ourselves, having 15 find weakness, I was able to kill myself in about three to five hits, with full resists. After the changes (one fireball and blizzard, and weaker) I cannot deal hardly any damage to myself, with full resists and zero find weakness.

Mage's are not as hardcore as we used to be. I feel as if mage's need to be beefed up again or we need more guild bonuses or armor. It takes too many skill points to play a mage now. The only race that can make a superb mage is a halfling, but there are a few good human mages that still play.

As far as PK goes, mage's are not made for pk. Every level 23+ will have full resists to every element. Mage's are a pain to kill in PK, but we cannot kill hardly anything at the same time.

Mages would probably be a 2 or to be honest, a 3.
Rakshasa monks and cavemen are very very good.
I had a rakshasa who used clubs and was level 21 before rakshasas lost the ability to wield weapons. My unguilded, level 21 rakshasa tiger who used a +2 balanced massive diamond club was over powered. My build on him was very good, and the ability to deal that much damage without being in a guild is too powerful. Rakshasas are the only races that I think can be a 1.

Archers are probably a 2. They're pretty good if you can play one well. Rogue's need to hit the gym. Except for Kabroz. He needs to lend us his boflex.

On an unrelated note, you should sell me any rings of omni magic you have when the game comes back up, Dracco :]
  #34  
Old 01-03-2012, 12:39 PM
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I still feel a level 30 mage can be a tier 1.

It sounds like mages are more balanced now. It was incredibly unfair the way they were. I think you can still run around in frost wave without damage so use that as a defensive spell. Having 0 find-weakness is counter productive as a mage even when your spells hurt you bad. I remember in 2004 I did not know that FW made a difference in spell damage too. I was extremely weak. Just change your habits as a mage and you won't kill yourself with your own spells. Another benefit mages have is hitting many monsters at once, which increases DPS even though it's spread out on multiple targets. I never used dragon breath, I had thunderstorm. Learn prismatic shield, I used to kill armored titans with nothing but that spell.

Sorry, I waited until there were 6 mages (excluding me) online one day and then assigned numbers 1-6 in the order they appeared on the "magewho" list and then rolled a die to choose one and sold them my rings of omnimagic for minimum. I wasn't going to take them to the grave like others have. I also wanted to keep it random as it sounded like the best way to give them away. I still remember who I gave them to but I will not tell.
  #35  
Old 01-03-2012, 01:14 PM
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Rarkvar you're just upset because playing as your mage isn't as easy as it used to be and that's cool because now we play all the time! Don't let the spell nerfs kill the fun that Wyvern delivers. Even as nerfed as you are now with some spells you know that V can still solo just about anything except maybe the Olympiad.

And quit whining about Omnimagics. You know if me (Rio) or Belray ever win one it's yours for a good price. Just be patient you'll get them.
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  #36  
Old 01-03-2012, 01:16 PM
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And you Dracco. You need to try and get one for Rarkvar. He's an awesome mage player who really deserves them just can't seem to find any since all the other loot was added to LQ's. Rark's been in need since what.... 08? XD
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  #37  
Old 01-03-2012, 01:43 PM
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Well my plan is to make an amazing archer and if, by the incredibly slim chance, I manage to win a ring of omnimagic from a LQ on said archer, then I will probably end up selling it to him (for cheap too if I don't need the money at the time I win one). As it stands, my archer is level 16 and guilded so it shouldn't take too long after the game is up to be ready to participate in some LQs. As for obtaining one from old friends, I really can't as I didn't have many friends and I don't think I was ever that well known. I just tend to stay quiet most of the time.
  #38  
Old 01-03-2012, 01:57 PM
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On the topic of the "mage nerf":

I rolled a human mage and specialized her in Water and Air magic (with earth magic coming in at higher levels). Also, when multiple balls spells were replaced with a single one, that one spell was VASTLY more powerful than than the multiple spells combined. Even frostwave became killer against higher level monsters. The nerf on damage was needed.

The mindset behind the newest nerf was to make players rely less on low level spells against higher level monsters. Fireball/blizzard/frostwave still have their place in clearing out low to mid level monsters but you need to rely on something more substantial than that to take on high level monsters.

However even with the nerf my mage (who has 15 FW) can deal significant amounts of damage using blizzard alone and icestorm simply obliterates enemies. Mages MUST be paired with FW to be effective, same as archers.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbringer Of Good Stuff View Post
Seeing an archer kill a ghast so fast...is so cool 0_0
Ghasts are amazingly simple, especially when you can kill ADs, Riagors, DLs and such in thirty seconds or less.

Last edited by Morwen : 01-03-2012 at 02:02 PM.
  #39  
Old 01-03-2012, 02:30 PM
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Yea Dracco same here. I just have my supergroup I run places with. Rio, Bel, and Ves. we do everything
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  #40  
Old 01-03-2012, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
On the topic of the "mage nerf":

I rolled a human mage and specialized her in Water and Air magic (with earth magic coming in at higher levels). Also, when multiple balls spells were replaced with a single one, that one spell was VASTLY more powerful than than the multiple spells combined. Even frostwave became killer against higher level monsters. The nerf on damage was needed.

The mindset behind the newest nerf was to make players rely less on low level spells against higher level monsters. Fireball/blizzard/frostwave still have their place in clearing out low to mid level monsters but you need to rely on something more substantial than that to take on high level monsters.

However even with the nerf my mage (who has 15 FW) can deal significant amounts of damage using blizzard alone and icestorm simply obliterates enemies. Mages MUST be paired with FW to be effective, same as archers.

EDIT:



Ghasts are amazingly simple, especially when you can kill ADs, Riagors, DLs and such in thirty seconds or less.

Yes but the skill points are hard to sacrifice. lore. arts. attack skills. meditation. and fw.... it's tough to be a mage.... expensive. omnimagic rings make things a little easier but they're way too hard to obtain now.

and not to mention... a pixie mage is impossible now.
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