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Suggestions Post any suggestions for new Wyvern content here that is too complicated to explain in the idea log or that you want to first get feedback on from other players.

 
 
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  #41  
Old 01-04-2012, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Arilou View Post
Instead I'd suggest people put this notion of being able to tank reapers out of their heads. Obviously, if you try to melee a monster with death ray, it's going to be impossible for you totally dodge that spell. Hence the idea you guys have that you should be able to protect against it with armor. This is further bolstered by this absurd idea that you should be able to create a tank that can thrash its way through the game, killing everything in sight. And, hey, why not? When that works, it's the fastest way to get xp. Ah, but wait... we didn't want you to mindlessly soak up experience, we wanted you to have to actually fight for it.

As a result, death ray engages people by making them have to dodge it. To further make things interesting, we have this little concept where not all monsters can be easily defeated by all classes of player. So, since meleers can't properly dodge the spell, (not that it's not fun to see if you guys running around in circles around a death ray capable monster) maybe they should stop trying to fight a monster that is obviously geared toward mages and archers. What they should do is find someone to group with and hang back while their little friends work at clearing them from a distance or, if they were to insist on traveling through reaper populated dungeons alone, maybe they should avoid them.

I know this idea of not being able to kill everything may be a bit off putting to the tank mentality, but we have things like rods that summon monsters which you can use to distract a reaper while you run around it, making sure you're far enough away to dodge a stray death ray if need be. Basically, if you can't handle something, learn to master the very simple concept of skipping it and moving on to the next challenge.
Then this kind of confuses me. I understand reapers being a "boss monster" similar to DL's and AD's, and death ray is their "gimmick." But if that rule applies to all monster's with death ray, doesn't that make them all a mage fight instead of a melee or group fight?

It just doesn't make much sense to me that if you encounter anything with death ray you should avoid it unless you can run away or out range it. I can understand a mosnter like a reaper being a big threat to one hit you, especially since you stated they shouldn't be in RD's. But if everything with death ray should be treated that way that doesn't make much sense to me.

If the argument is boss monsters should be taken down with a big group and with the risk of instant KO (which is never fun in any situation, just saying), then the reward of the amount of xp they give or the treasure they give isn't anywhere near worth it. I'm not arguing just bringing it up for discussion.
  #42  
Old 01-04-2012, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Bullfrogz View Post
If the argument is boss monsters should be taken down with a big group and with the risk of instant KO (which is never fun in any situation, just saying), then the reward of the amount of xp they give or the treasure they give isn't anywhere near worth it. I'm not arguing just bringing it up for discussion.
You don't need a big group to take down a reaper, only a single archer.

But I can see where you're coming from, since high-level archers are extremely rare, and without one along you either blow through a lot of reagents, or run a substantial risk of death.

(Slightly off-topic: are diamond golems prone to dray? If not, Ohms is the most OP mage active.... )
  #43  
Old 01-04-2012, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Bullfrogz View Post
Then this kind of confuses me. I understand reapers being a "boss monster" similar to DL's and AD's, and death ray is their "gimmick." But if that rule applies to all monster's with death ray, doesn't that make them all a mage fight instead of a melee or group fight?

It just doesn't make much sense to me that if you encounter anything with death ray you should avoid it unless you can run away or out range it. I can understand a mosnter like a reaper being a big threat to one hit you, especially since you stated they shouldn't be in RD's. But if everything with death ray should be treated that way that doesn't make much sense to me.

If the argument is boss monsters should be taken down with a big group and with the risk of instant KO (which is never fun in any situation, just saying), then the reward of the amount of xp they give or the treasure they give isn't anywhere near worth it. I'm not arguing just bringing it up for discussion.
You're combining two different things here. A group monster can be a boss monster, but a boss monster need not be a group monster. A boss is simply a monster that provides a significantly greater challenge than the monsters that come before it. The point being that reapers were designed with the intent that they would be that challenge you'd find at the end of an Alaria Gauntlet type dungeon or serving as the mini-bosses for even higher level bosses such as you see in Forgotten Oak Catacombs.

Anyway, the bosses themselves vary in the challenges they offer players. Some might be weak to mages or meleers or whatever and we may create an entire dungeon for one type of player with monsters that can be defeated by that player only or we may set up a multi-path group dungeon where there are different mini-bosses that are weak to different types of players.

So, say for example, there's a dungeon which absolutely needs to be solved by three players - An archer, a mage, and a meleer. At the end is a terrible beast that switches between being weak against all three classes, but before you can enter his lair you need to collect three keys from three mini-bosses. Each mini-boss is strong against two people in your party and weak against a third, meaning that the best way for you to solve this dungeon is to split up, conquer each section on your own, and then meet up when you have the keys.

Now, if a reaper was used in that scenario we'd say it was the mage boss and that's perfectly fine. For the purposes of random dungeons, all monsters are currently mixed in together so there may be points were you have to take turns - There's nothing wrong with letting your mage handle a reaper while you clear the rest of the dungeon or just hanging back. In an ideal world where we had lots of different monsters that were weak/strong against different things, you'd have plentiful opportunities to return the favor.
  #44  
Old 01-04-2012, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullfrogz View Post
Then this kind of confuses me. I understand reapers being a "boss monster" similar to DL's and AD's, and death ray is their "gimmick." But if that rule applies to all monster's with death ray, doesn't that make them all a mage fight instead of a melee or group fight?

It just doesn't make much sense to me that if you encounter anything with death ray you should avoid it unless you can run away or out range it. I can understand a mosnter like a reaper being a big threat to one hit you, especially since you stated they shouldn't be in RD's. But if everything with death ray should be treated that way that doesn't make much sense to me.

If the argument is boss monsters should be taken down with a big group and with the risk of instant KO (which is never fun in any situation, just saying), then the reward of the amount of xp they give or the treasure they give isn't anywhere near worth it. I'm not arguing just bringing it up for discussion.
The point you forgot:
While the death ray resistance maxes out, That does not mean every monster has that strength of death ray.
The monsters have different levels of death magic strength so their death ray is "weaker" or "stronger".
So their % chance would be less.

Treasure and XP is unrelated to how difficult the monster is to kill.
Because what is difficult for one class is quite easy for another etc.
  #45  
Old 01-04-2012, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Arilou View Post
You're combining two different things here. A group monster can be a boss monster, but a boss monster need not be a group monster. A boss is simply a monster that provides a significantly greater challenge than the monsters that come before it. The point being that reapers were designed with the intent that they would be that challenge you'd find at the end of an Alaria Gauntlet type dungeon or serving as the mini-bosses for even higher level bosses such as you see in Forgotten Oak Catacombs.

Anyway, the bosses themselves vary in the challenges they offer players. Some might be weak to mages or meleers or whatever and we may create an entire dungeon for one type of player with monsters that can be defeated by that player only or we may set up a multi-path group dungeon where there are different mini-bosses that are weak to different types of players.

So, say for example, there's a dungeon which absolutely needs to be solved by three players - An archer, a mage, and a meleer. At the end is a terrible beast that switches between being weak against all three classes, but before you can enter his lair you need to collect three keys from three mini-bosses. Each mini-boss is strong against two people in your party and weak against a third, meaning that the best way for you to solve this dungeon is to split up, conquer each section on your own, and then meet up when you have the keys.

Now, if a reaper was used in that scenario we'd say it was the mage boss and that's perfectly fine. For the purposes, of random dungeons, all monsters are currently mixed in together so there may be points were you have to take turns - There's nothing wrong with letting your mage handle a reaper while you clear the rest of the dungeon or just hang back. In an ideal world where we had lots of different monsters that were weak/strong against different things, you'd have plentiful opportunities to return the favor.
Thank you for the response. If this is the direction the game is going to go if it comes back up, then I am very excited for it's future.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah
The point you forgot:
While the death ray resistance maxes out, That does not mean every monster has that strength of death ray.
The monsters have different levels of death magic strength so their death ray is "weaker" or "stronger".
So their % chance would be less.

Treasure and XP is unrelated to how difficult the monster is to kill.
Because what is difficult for one class is quite easy for another etc.
I understand that every monster has a different death ray chance. Someone stated that a DL's death ray still goes over max resist, and I felt that a demon lord was more of a group monster where the melee users are in the front and the casters/archers are in the back. But the melee users still have zero chance to dodge an instant death. I know its a chance based, but since the fix to death ray immunity maybe the spell shouldn't just be tossed around to every boss monster.

Take for instance the Demon Lord. Instead of having a death ray that still can go over max resistance, give it a stronger recoil that you cannot be immune too no matter what level of resistance you achieve. This still makes it a fearful monster that is best tackled as a group without just slapping death ray on it.

Just an idea, it just feels that when a new "hard" monster is created it has to have death ray slapped on it.
  #46  
Old 01-05-2012, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Bullfrogz View Post
Thank you for the response. If this is the direction the game is going to go if it comes back up, then I am very excited for it's future.




I understand that every monster has a different death ray chance. Someone stated that a DL's death ray still goes over max resist, and I felt that a demon lord was more of a group monster where the melee users are in the front and the casters/archers are in the back. But the melee users still have zero chance to dodge an instant death. I know its a chance based, but since the fix to death ray immunity maybe the spell shouldn't just be tossed around to every boss monster.

Take for instance the Demon Lord. Instead of having a death ray that still can go over max resistance, give it a stronger recoil that you cannot be immune too no matter what level of resistance you achieve. This still makes it a fearful monster that is best tackled as a group without just slapping death ray on it.

Just an idea, it just feels that when a new "hard" monster is created it has to have death ray slapped on it.

Max resist is only approximately 95%, stronger monsters obviously go over max resist and you need a group etc.
You were never supposed to be immune.

There weren't any new hard monsters added in the past few years that got Death Ray, so I dont know what ones you are talking about.

Tanks can't handle some monsters alone, it's the way it's supposed to be.
The few high level DR monsters that tanks can't kill alone can just be easily avoided by running around/past them or stop before reaching them and go to a new area etc.

Read Arilou's past posts about Death Ray. The assumption that you should be able to find things to wear to "get immunity" isn't valid. Arilou has addressed it more times than I can count here so I won't do that whole thing again.
  #47  
Old 01-05-2012, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Teshuvah View Post
Tanks can't handle some monsters alone, it's the way it's supposed to be.
The few high level DR monsters that tanks can't kill alone can just be easily avoided by running around/past them or stop before reaching them and go to a new area etc..
What drives me crazy about reapers is not only insta-death but that fact that they can blink away, then fire DR from where they were as to where they blinked to. Makes it difficult to run around. Secondly, if reapers were supposed to be boss difficulty, why are there always...always multiples of them when they show up. That makes it hard to avoid them as well.
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  #48  
Old 01-06-2012, 08:23 AM
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What drives me crazy about reapers is not only insta-death but that fact that they can blink away, then fire DR from where they were as to where they blinked to. Makes it difficult to run around. Secondly, if reapers were supposed to be boss difficulty, why are there always...always multiples of them when they show up. That makes it hard to avoid them as well.
You are discussing problems with random dungeons, which falls under the column of "Random Dungeons redo" and have nothing to do with Death Ray or Reapers.

In regular training areas they are easy to avoid.
  #49  
Old 01-06-2012, 11:30 AM
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The blink/DR is because of RDs?
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  #50  
Old 01-06-2012, 02:54 PM
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The blink/DR is because of RDs?
Yes, for many reasons, one being the map is too large. Blink should not take them that far away but it just moves them "in the same map".
For map purposes, the "map" should be that "room" of the RD etc.
RDs are all kinds of outside the mapguidelines.
Lots of issues with spell casting in RDs in general because the code is a mess.
So listing things that "go wrong" in RDs is a moot point to us.
They aren't changing until RDs are totally rewritten. We fixed them so they would remain useable and not just removed them, but there isn't anymore that can be done.

There is also the issue of the command queue.
There is no way to "Stop" a cast when it's already in the queue. It's not possible at all we've asked for it, the way the game is written it can not be done.
(same reason you can't stop a quit command after its been given)

Reapers don't appear in large groups in regular maps either. etc
  #51  
Old 02-21-2012, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Arilou View Post
.

No, it's the amulet of lifesaving, (desc - "This amulet will save the wearer's life and teleport the wearer to safety. It only works ONCE.") but it's been broken since Rhialto brought the game back up at the end of '07

I was reading through old game update news on the archive and remembered this discussion after reading this in one of the earlier game updates.

5/20/2002 IMPORTANT NOTE: **The Amulet of Lifesaving has been changed so that it no longer teleports you to safety. It will save your life one time, restore your HP, and disappear. The Amulet of the Phoenix does the same, but only gives 50% of your HP back. The AOLS was too powerful - anyone who had one could never die, making the game boring. Now it'll still save your life, but you have to be careful.

If it was intended as a perminant update then I think the desc. of the amulet needs to be changed instead of the amulet being bugged.
  #52  
Old 02-21-2012, 12:15 PM
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It was working post 2002 and pre-the first downtime. I had seen players teleported to churches while wearing them a few times (people generally didn't use it though) and I personally tested both amulets when I was playing with an idea to have a monster wear the phoenix amulet to give players a bit of a surprise (monsters can't wear armor, but you ended up seeing a form of this with my future monster dropping monster idea). So either Rhialto went back on that without posting a news update and it became broken during the downtime (like a number of things) or it working was a bug and it somehow ended up resolved without my knowing.

In any case, gameplay is vastly different "today" than it was then and, in my opinion, it should be restored to help players trying to get by under the new system. Now, whether that means it should be restored with or without tweaks is something I neglected to say as I hadn't gotten around to talking to the other wizards about it. When I had done so we would've talked about balance and decided if it needed any adjustments. We could make it cost more, we could make it rarer, we could add a chance that it won't teleport you to a church, or we could make it teleport you to a random location in the map instead (that could also be a third amulet option).

But it's no longer on my plate anymore and is for whoever continues to work on Wyvern to decide - They can either restore it with or without changes or decide not to restore it at all.
  #53  
Old 02-21-2012, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Arilou View Post
-snip-
We could make it cost more, we could be rarer, we could add a chance that it won't teleport you to a church, or we could make it teleport you to a random location in the map instead (that could also be a third amulet option).
-snip-
Teleporting the wearer to Hades when cursed seems like a nice option.
  #54  
Old 02-22-2012, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Teshuvah View Post
They aren't changing until RDs are totally rewritten. We fixed them so they would remain useable and not just removed them, but there isn't anymore that can be done.
Just as an ignorant suggestion/question to the insta-death stairs issue is it even possible to see into a map that is being randomized for you via RD? If it were i would think making a spell like x-ray vision able to see down stairs would fix my problem with it. Allow you to see whats there and decide whether its worth the risk. If its not then it you would leave possibly also having the side effect of decreasing reliance on RD's.

Edit: Or maybe enable something like magic eye to go down stairs?
  #55  
Old 02-22-2012, 04:35 PM
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If monsters no longer spawn on the stairs then couldn't you just make an alias to: apply stairs; cast magic map; apply stairs? Or even try a fireball instead of magic map and see what you hit.

It'd be better to branch off of that strategy instead of requesting a band-aid to the issue.

Side note: I really don't know much about coding but maybe it's possible to "stop" a queued monster command by delaying it (queue up a command above existing one). That being said, the odds are the game does not have the ability to insert a command above a previously existing one. I just thought I'd throw that idea out there since it seems like you guys could benefit from a way to stop queued monster commands.
  #56  
Old 02-22-2012, 07:20 PM
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By that logic you're saying the stairs issue is a non-issue. I've always had to deal with the stairs the same as the rest. Yes, you can pop a fireball to see whats there but you're not guaranteed to hit anything. Magic eye is not used very often so if it were possible to do it would be very useful. Anything at this point is a band-aid for this issue as the wizards have already said a redo is in order.
  #57  
Old 02-22-2012, 07:54 PM
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That's why in my first sentence I recommended the magic map alias as it's exactly what you wanted: an x-ray of the map below you. I do not see the stairs as an issue, as finding ways to avoid death on the way down is easy. Why ask the wizards to spend time coding a band-aid fix when working alternatives currently exist.

Magic eye having the ability to move from map to map sounds like something that will end up being massively abused.
  #58  
Old 02-22-2012, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dracco View Post
That's why in my first sentence I recommended the magic map alias as it's exactly what you wanted: an x-ray of the map below you. I do not see the stairs as an issue, as finding ways to avoid death on the way down is easy. Why ask the wizards to spend time coding a band-aid fix when working alternatives currently exist.

Magic eye having the ability to move from map to map sounds like something that will end up being massively abused.
Disagree. You haven't RD'ed lately. I can double click "a" to see what is down the stairs and get d-rayed. it has happened to me multiple times. twice with 95% dpro.
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  #59  
Old 02-22-2012, 08:36 PM
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Disagree. You haven't RD'ed lately. I can double click "a" to see what is down the stairs and get d-rayed. it has happened to me multiple times. twice with 95% dpro.
Try using an alias instead of physically pressing the 'a' key. I've made aliases to go into a different map and shoot fireballs and exit map that went so fast I never saw the other map.
  #60  
Old 02-22-2012, 11:19 PM
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Magic eye having the ability to move from map to map sounds like something that will end up being massively abused.
Its more of a suggestion for wizards than anything else. Regardless i am curious to how you think this could be abused.
 


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