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Suggestions Post any suggestions for new Wyvern content here that is too complicated to explain in the idea log or that you want to first get feedback on from other players.

 
 
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  #61  
Old 03-17-2011, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steovanni View Post
Eh? So it isn't like firebolt / fear etc that hits you multiple times? I know that with 95% fear resist, it takes a while to get feared as the cone travels over me.

Pretty interesting to know that if the first hit doesn't kill you/you got saved by a lifesaving/phoenix amount, the rest of the Death Ray will just fly over you.

Though however, what if you got killed by Death Ray while running away from it and you move to an entirely new square, only for Death Ray to catch up to you as it travels, are you still immune to that same Death Ray?

Thanks.
That is indeed an interesting piece of information, not as useful for melees without preparing an amulet for every other death ray but still nice to know for mages and archers.

By the way, can anyone provide a link to the topic tesh was referring to? Would be nice to know what was the rest of Rhialto's vision.
  #62  
Old 03-17-2011, 07:43 AM
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Yes, that is surely a good think to know. It makes one reconsider amulet use alltogether.
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  #63  
Old 03-17-2011, 09:03 AM
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Here is the game balance page, I posted it directly to the forum to make it easier to find.

http://www.wyvernrpg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2361
  #64  
Old 03-17-2011, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah View Post
Here is the game balance page, I posted it directly to the forum to make it easier to find.

http://www.wyvernrpg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2361
... Which ever so happens to be the copy and paste version of the one I read in the cache (since site is down).

It appears I got ahead of myself, I should have clarified what part of the balance you were even talking about before going into whether or not it makes any sense.

Alright, I will give you the benefit of doubt and properly discuss and reinterpret what Rhialto said in the page you have linked me to. From the context, you are telling me that Rhialto mentioned in that page something along the lines of "you should have a chance of dying against everything".

Therefore let us slowly look through the page for anything that matches your description. If I run into that particular line but interpret it in the wrong way, then feel free to point it out for me. And if it happens to not exist in the page then that is that. I am not doubting that you do not know Rhialto's vision of balance after working on Wyvern for all this time, after all I am sure that you had much more conversations with him than most of the people on Wyvern.

However, telling me to read that page again is not giving me an answer. So we will see what went wrong in this conversation.

Let us begin, this may end up being fairly long but ah well.

I will list quotes from that page one by one, taking every single quote that I feel is even slightly relevant to what you have said.

Quote:
Your rate of progression should be more or less linear - it should NOT be much easier when you're higher level.
There are two ways to interpret this. The first way is that it is talking about the difficulty to level, which is somewhat more natural and makes more sense in a game.

Meanwhile the second way is a bit of a push so that it leads to what you are saying but it can also mean that you should not have much of an easier time killing a goblin/kobold etc in comparison to before no matter what level you are. But even then, there is one problem with this. Your post used Russian roulette as an analogy, as well as the fact that we are currently talking about deaths by luck and not skill.

This quote, if it was referring to the latter part, it would clearly be talking about difficulty to kill and less about dying by pure luck. If you died to a goblin at level 1, you do not die to it because luck said so, it's because of your carelessness that led to the death. But taking what you said in context, you would be saying that we can die at any given moment against every monster in Wyvern just because Rhialto said so.

Quote:
You can never "fall asleep at the wheel". You should always run the risk of dying if you stop paying attention.
This is reasonable and while it does not always apply to melees at the moment, it is true for mages and archers. If they decide to leave the computer or something along those lines in the middle of a battle, they would be running a risk of dying from a random stray monster or better yet, the monster right in front of them.

However always having a risk of death against everything hardly has anything to do with paying attention assuming you are not a low level. In the case of death ray, for melees, it does not matter what kind of superhuman reflexes you have when the death ray hits you at point blank range.

Therefore I do not think this part of the balance has anything to do with what you have said.

Quote:
There should always be monsters that you can't kill. If you can kill the most powerful monsters in the game, then the balance is wrong.
Indeed this is a very good point, grouping would be relatively meaningless if a single player could kill everything by him or herself. I do not know how balanced this part is at the moment, because while I believe most people can take on a Demon lord, Riagor and so on alone, telling them to take on all of the LQ bosses alone may be somewhat hard.

However that is besides the point, we can interpret it in the way that death ray is a measure taken so that people cannot kill everything alone. This does not make sense in this case, because mages and archers kill them perfectly fine, it is even recommended for a melee to start hurling or maging those monsters to death.

Not to mention, it is not that melees *cannot* kill the monsters in question, it is that they expose themselves to significant risk and that deters melees from doing their job and fighting them.

For this reason, I exclude this part from having anything to do with what you have said.

Quote:
You should always have grave difficulty (pun intended) killing certain monsters. If you can kill everything easily, you'll be bored.
This part is more or less a repeat of the previous part, giving every monster death ray does not make them the slightest bit more difficult, it only forces melees to shoulder the additional risk. Basically if we had to compare, giving a giant rat death ray does not make it "hard" to kill. It only makes you have a chance of dying every time you kill one when fighting against it on a melee.

But in terms of actual difficulty, it's as simple as walking up and smashing it once. Not to mention you can also just hurl a rock, shoot an arrow or cast a spell to kill it perfectly safe.

Once again, luck does not equal to difficulty.

Quote:
You should never be able to enter combat and then walk away from your keyboard. If you fall asleep, the kobolds should gnaw your face off.
Yep this part is true, if people did that then it would be a symbol of how confident they are in not dying. And since you are supposed to have a sense of danger and be on high alert when training, it would not make sense for people to blatantly leave the computer in the middle.

I stated this a bit above but, this already somewhat applies to mages and archers. If you took them and walked up to a monster with decent strength, like a ghast or whatever and then left the computer, you would obviously come back dead.

However it does not always apply to melees because they would usually automatically retaliate to attacks. But yet again, this has absolutely nothing to do with having a chance to die against every monster through luck.

If you die to something like this, it is the result of your actions.

And that ends all of the quotes that I could find related to this subject.

Alright, I have finished my side of the things, perhaps there are some minor areas I overlooked but the most obvious points have been stated here. Now it is your turn to answer and explain.
  #65  
Old 03-17-2011, 11:10 AM
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This isn't up to your interpretation or debate, this is what he wants, period. Why you wasted your time debating it is beyond me. Having worked with and discussed this with him for years gives us some insight.
You're need to hear yourself talk and think you know more about the game and how he wants it run than he does is comical.

*Shakes head* but just to clarify for other folks who mentioned things.

This is what I mean about "you should always have a chance of dying to a goblin"

This:
You should never be able to enter combat and then walk away from your keyboard. If you fall asleep, the kobolds should gnaw your face off.

(at the moment with auto attacking back this doesn't happen but this is the goal, if you arent careful you can die.)

Or this:
There should always be monsters that you can't kill. If you can kill the most powerful monsters in the game, then the balance is wrong.
(this is encouraging groups)

Death ray is just *one* of the ways we are doing this, there are more coming as I said and as are listed in Rhialtos balance note. You should and will always have a chance to die and not be able to be immune.


You don't have to like it, but this is what we are going for. Rhialto "Answered and explained" just fine.

No one class has more of a risk to die to death ray than another, they just have to think of other ways to handle it. (As Arilou said 10 times)
  #66  
Old 03-17-2011, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah View Post
This isn't up to your interpretation or debate, this is what he wants, period. Why you wasted your time debating it is beyond me. Having worked with and discussed this with him for years gives us some insight.
You're need to hear yourself talk is comical.

*Shakes head* but just to clarify for other folks who mentioned things.

This is what I mean about "you should always have a chance of dying to a goblin"

This:
You should never be able to enter combat and then walk away from your keyboard. If you fall asleep, the kobolds should gnaw your face off.

(at the moment with auto attacking back this doesn't happen but this is the goal, if you arent careful you can die.)

Or this:
There should always be monsters that you can't kill. If you can kill the most powerful monsters in the game, then the balance is wrong.
(this is encouraging groups)

Death ray is just *one* of the ways we are doing this, there are more coming as I said and as are listed in Rhialtos balance note.


You don't have to like it, but this is what we are going for.
About time there was a proper reply.

Now, if you were to read my post, the entire reason I even began the interpretation is because you were constantly referring me to the notes despite them not answering anything.

So at last we have grasped where exactly you are talking about.

Now to talk about them...

Quote:
You should never be able to enter combat and then walk away from your keyboard. If you fall asleep, the kobolds should gnaw your face off.
You mean to say that you want monsters to always harm players no matter your armor and level? (so that it's even possible to die)

Alright, sure, there should be plenty of ways to do that like adding a minimum damage but why exactly would you choose to give a select few monsters death ray and even hope all monsters could do it instead? That's about as rational as shooting a missile to kill a rat.

Not to mention as I stated, death ray has nothing to do with walking away from your keyboard. Even if you were paying attention you would die anyway. If that was not the case, then there would not be as much deaths to death ray.

Quote:
There should always be monsters that you can't kill. If you can kill the most powerful monsters in the game, then the balance is wrong.
Encouraging groups? Wonderful. Indeed, in order to make people group, you would need an objective that they cannot achieve alone.

It's good to know that there will be different ways in the future to encourage grouping as well. However, where exactly is the need to let lives depend on luck? It is not that we cannot kill them, it is that we do not want to risk our lives doing so because the risk versus reward is not worth it.

So alright, we do not want to die therefore we will group. Is it because the monster is powerful? No. Even if it's a death rat that can die in one hit or anything along those lines, melees would likely much prefer a mage or archer to kill it rather than themselves.

But wait, let us think again. If it is the purpose of wizards to make melees find another way to kill them, as in, stand away and hurl or gasp, cast magic. And then when you think about it for more than a few seconds, you will realize that many of the "high tier" monsters have death ray.

So then what? Against high tier monsters melees are supposed to:
  1. Fight with the risk of dying to luck (a significant one)
  2. Abandon that thought and let a mage/archer kill
  3. Retrain to have the capability to hurl or cast magic/see if you can kill high level monsters with little to no skill trained or even negatives

Haven't melees pulled the short end of the stick here in that case? We are given the choice of having a chance to die by luck or to not fight them/gear yourself to fight in something irrelevant to where you put your skill points in.

If it were for one or two monsters it does not matter, but we are talking about many of the higher tier monsters and even some low level monsters have death ray.

And archer/mages? I believe it should be fairly obvious that they can hide out of view or at the very least, they have the time to move away before the death ray hits. They can kill all of the high tier monsters at full power and just about every other monster as well.

Death ray encourages melees to group. But for archers/mages, they could kill those monsters just fine alone because the melee is sitting out the battle entirely.

Quote:
No one class has more of a risk to die to death ray than another, they just have to think of other ways to handle it. (As Arilou said 10 times)
Who are you joking? Even within melee classes, due to armor restrictions, some classes cannot get as much death protection as other classes.

And you are saying that supposedly, a mage or archer carries the same risk to die to death ray as a melee. When mages and archers do not even need to be able to see the monster in order to kill. Even if a death ray went their way, they are given the time to dodge. Arilou mentioned this in his post as well:

Quote:
This is the purpose of death ray - To force you to remain at a distance and to be quick on your feet. Mages and archers who cannot manage this need to practice their dodging skills
So then what, are you saying that all mages and archers are incapable and need to practice their dodging skills?

From the very beginning I was arguing the fact that the method being used to achieve the objective is not a very reasonable one. When you think of a risk of dying, it is usually from taking damage or carelessness. Not from a dice roll. That is, of course, when actually meleeing and not changing your build to become a second rate archer/mage. Hurl is a nice idea once more ammunition gets implemented, but rod is silly with our negatives.
  #67  
Old 03-17-2011, 12:13 PM
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If anyone has any other questions about game balance that weren't already addressed repeatedly feel free to start another thread as this one has gotten off topic. Everything else here has been addressed many times.
 


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