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  #1  
Old 11-11-2014, 05:13 PM
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Default How long would it take a professional to make a SINGEPLAYER Wyvern?

How long would it take a professional to make a singleplayer Wyvern, while working on it 8-10 hours a day? I'd think it would take like half as long without all that server stuff, but I don't know, that's why I'm asking you...
  #2  
Old 11-12-2014, 12:43 AM
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Due to the nature of how wyvern was constructed, you cannot really remove the multiplayer bits. Your question is like asking how long it would take to make a single user database. You are misunderstanding what exactly is involved here.

Take a look here to see why wyvern is called a MUD: http://web.archive.org/web/200210130.../overview.html
And also the API: http://web.archive.org/web/200606152...api/index.html
What you should take away from this is that wyvern was not just a rogue-like with a graphics pack. It's like comparing MS Paint to Gimp or Photoshop, which are very large, complicated, and extensible systems.

For just the code, you are easily looking at thousands of man-hours for what wyvern was. The code that actually passes information across the internet (as opposed to straight to a GUI) were inconsequential in light of everything else.
  #3  
Old 11-12-2014, 02:12 AM
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Thanks for the response, but I'm not misunderstanding anything, when I ask how long it would take, I include everything(that does not include making it multiplayer), not just certain parts of it...

Quote:
For just the code, you are easily looking at thousands of man-hours for what wyvern was.
Thanks though, I actually expected you to say that
  #4  
Old 11-16-2014, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Thanks for the response, but I'm not misunderstanding anything, when I ask how long it would take, I include everything(that does not include making it multiplayer), not just certain parts of it...

Thanks though, I actually expected you to say that
I'm going to overlook the fact that when you respond to someone who's trying to be genuinely nice and helpful to you that you're being extremely condescending like you know what you're talking about, even though you asked such an inane question. I don't even know why I'm about to do this because it'll probably fall on deaf ears, but if you read this, remember that you were asking us for our expertise.

To start out with, what you're talking about making is called an "RPG," which is totally different from Wyvern in presentation. You could make it look the same, but to have the same feel, it would need lots of thought about NPCs - do you have NPCs pretend to be humans playing a game? If not, you lose a lot of what made Wyvern so great.

Single player games cannot and will not ever be able to be like a multiplayer game, and vice versa, since the human element is what makes a multiplayer game charming in a different way from a single player game.

Now that I've gotten all of that out of the way, let's pretend that a single player Wyvern would feel the same, just for the sake of argument. A professional, to make an entire game, takes anywhere from a few months to 10 years.

If you're an indie developer with some solid experience (say, a few years in high school of tinkering and then a degree in college in something related, English, Computer Science, Graphic Arts, etc., all the while still working on game projects), the same time frame goes, but this depends more on resources, (a lot of disposable income will make the game happen quicker, but there's a lot of public domain and creative commons content out there).
In terms of making a game like Wyvern, using an existing game engine is probably out. So the physics (movement, collision detection, animation, etc.) would all need to be created from scratch. This is an additional year of work if you're doing it all by yourself.

Asset development and programming are totally separate elements here, as well. In relation to what Logwad was explaining, think about all the different things that make a game - music, graphics, story lines, etc., and how they have to integrate well stylistically. A game isn't one thing. A game is many things that come together to transcend zeros and ones (or even pen and paper, cardboard and plastic, etc.) and create an overarching user experience.

A lot of prior planning goes into a project this big. Consider putting off trying to create a whole single player RPG by yourself until you have created some smaller games, and have some understanding of the bigger picture.

Honestly, start small with 'simple' games before you try to tackle such big projects. You'll have something tangible to show off to friends and family (who will think you're some sort of god), and you'll feel better and more confident in your skills as your game development portfolio expands. Here are some games that are way simpler to develop a clone of:
Pong
Breakout
Pacman
Donkey Kong
Asteroids
Snake
A few worlds worth of the original Mario, or...
Mario Bros. (The arcade style game where the monsters pop out of the sideways pipes and come down to Mario and Luigi, with the pow box and whatnot).

I'm not calling these games simple by any means, it'll take a lot of work, but they are a lot simpler than imitating a graphical MUD as a single player game. While I'm on the subject, a lot of these games are recursive, meaning they get progressively harder and theoretically never end (though a lot of them have a real-life end, be it mechanical or via a game over screen). If you get through this list, look for arcade games on the internet and make clones of those, too.

If you want to try to mimic RPG style games right away, try developing a text based adventure game instead, then move on to a clone of something like Zelda, working your way toward other genre-similar game styles. Also this goes back to my discussion in another thread regarding your pixie question.

If you want to make totally original content, you're going to want to learn a solid programming language like Python, Java, or C++. You're going to need to understand how to create sprites and animation, believably so. You'll also need to have a thorough understanding of music theory. While we're on theory you'll need to grasp, you'll want to be versed in creative writing and game design theory.

Also, you really should stop asking us these questions and start Googling stuff. Google will give you good information, instantly, and you can learn a lot by just knowing how to search properly.

In closing, a lot of this stuff may seem dry. I was there at your age, thinking I could make a whole MMO by myself (still haven't, I'm 25, and I still take a crack at it every so often; I'm a hobbyist of a lot of things so I get easily distracted from huge projects). If you don't have enough enthusiasm for the art to start small and work your way up, (and to soak up as much of what we're telling you as possible) then all you're really doing is dreaming big, which is just dreaming.
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  #5  
Old 11-20-2014, 08:20 AM
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I won't lie, I've got a bit more sympathy for you Josiah, maybe because I can also remember the days where I would spend hours trying to make MMO's and all sorts of crazy things.

Want some advice? Start small. Go learn Actionscript or find a small make your own game website. If it's your first language then it'll help you knock down the simple things like variables, procs, defines, etc. After that, do like Nod suggested and make a few clones. After a bit you can try making your own RPG. It would take thousands of hours to reach the level Wyvern did. If you attempt this I'm sure you'll gain /some/ experience, even if you don't succeed.
  #6  
Old 11-23-2014, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodlove View Post
I'm going to overlook the fact that when you respond to someone who's trying to be genuinely nice and helpful to you that you're being extremely condescending like you know what you're talking about, even though you asked such an inane question. I don't even know why I'm about to do this because it'll probably fall on deaf ears, but if you read this, remember that you were asking us for our expertise.
I wasn't being condescending or pretending I knew what I was talking about, I was just saying that I was asking that question, fully expecting that it would take thousands of hours of work, and that without being multiplayer, it wouldn't be nearly as fun. Although I didn't use the chat too often so it wouldn't make a big difference anyways, but for alot of people going in dungeons together(making it a MUD, right?) and talking to the other players was the most important part, I just didn't find it a that big deal...

Quote:
To start out with, what you're talking about making is called an "RPG," which is totally different from Wyvern in presentation. You could make it look the same, but to have the same feel, it would need lots of thought about NPCs - do you have NPCs pretend to be humans playing a game? If not, you lose a lot of what made Wyvern so great.

Single player games cannot and will not ever be able to be like a multiplayer game, and vice versa, since the human element is what makes a multiplayer game charming in a different way from a single player game.

Now that I've gotten all of that out of the way, let's pretend that a single player Wyvern would feel the same, just for the sake of argument. A professional, to make an entire game, takes anywhere from a few months to 10 years.

If you're an indie developer with some solid experience (say, a few years in high school of tinkering and then a degree in college in something related, English, Computer Science, Graphic Arts, etc., all the while still working on game projects), the same time frame goes, but this depends more on resources, (a lot of disposable income will make the game happen quicker, but there's a lot of public domain and creative commons content out there).
In terms of making a game like Wyvern, using an existing game engine is probably out. So the physics (movement, collision detection, animation, etc.) would all need to be created from scratch. This is an additional year of work if you're doing it all by yourself.

Asset development and programming are totally separate elements here, as well. In relation to what Logwad was explaining, think about all the different things that make a game - music, graphics, story lines, etc., and how they have to integrate well stylistically. A game isn't one thing. A game is many things that come together to transcend zeros and ones (or even pen and paper, cardboard and plastic, etc.) and create an overarching user experience.
I totally agree.
Quote:
A lot of prior planning goes into a project this big. Consider putting off trying to create a whole single player RPG by yourself until you have created some smaller games, and have some understanding of the bigger picture.

Honestly, start small with 'simple' games before you try to tackle such big projects. You'll have something tangible to show off to friends and family (who will think you're some sort of god), and you'll feel better and more confident in your skills as your game development portfolio expands. Here are some games that are way simpler to develop a clone of:
Pong
Breakout
Pacman
Donkey Kong
Asteroids
Snake
A few worlds worth of the original Mario, or...
Mario Bros. (The arcade style game where the monsters pop out of the sideways pipes and come down to Mario and Luigi, with the pow box and whatnot).

I'm not calling these games simple by any means, it'll take a lot of work, but they are a lot simpler than imitating a graphical MUD as a single player game. While I'm on the subject, a lot of these games are recursive, meaning they get progressively harder and theoretically never end (though a lot of them have a real-life end, be it mechanical or via a game over screen). If you get through this list, look for arcade games on the internet and make clones of those, too.

If you want to try to mimic RPG style games right away, try developing a text based adventure game instead, then move on to a clone of something like Zelda, working your way toward other genre-similar game styles. Also this goes back to my discussion in another thread regarding your pixie question.

If you want to make totally original content, you're going to want to learn a solid programming language like Python, Java, or C++. You're going to need to understand how to create sprites and animation, believably so. You'll also need to have a thorough understanding of music theory. While we're on theory you'll need to grasp, you'll want to be versed in creative writing and game design theory.

Also, you really should stop asking us these questions and start Googling stuff. Google will give you good information, instantly, and you can learn a lot by just knowing how to search properly.

In closing, a lot of this stuff may seem dry. I was there at your age, thinking I could make a whole MMO by myself (still haven't, I'm 25, and I still take a crack at it every so often; I'm a hobbyist of a lot of things so I get easily distracted from huge projects). If you don't have enough enthusiasm for the art to start small and work your way up, (and to soak up as much of what we're telling you as possible) then all you're really doing is dreaming big, which is just dreaming.
Thank you, that's actually what I have done except with Gamemaker(which you probably think is a waste of time).
  #7  
Old 11-24-2014, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
I wasn't being condescending or pretending I knew what I was talking about, I was just saying that I was asking that question, fully expecting that it would take thousands of hours of work, and that without being multiplayer, it wouldn't be nearly as fun. Although I didn't use the chat too often so it wouldn't make a big difference anyways, but for alot of people going in dungeons together(making it a MUD, right?) and talking to the other players was the most important part, I just didn't find it a that big deal...
You're actually very wrong, the most important part of any online game is the social aspect. Playing one and choosing to go 'solo' and ignore the chat is still a very social behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Thank you, that's actually what I have done except with Gamemaker(which you probably think is a waste of time).
On the contrary, I don't think Gamemaker is a waste of time, it's all about what you do with it.

But I agree with Arilou, and most other self-respecting game designers/developers when he says that what you're doing is not 'creating games,' so much as modding an existing engine's contents (paraphrasing). You're also not actually programming in Gamemaker. But it's a cheap solution (not as cheap as Unity3D Free), and it's a great way to get started in the design aspect of game development.

But, and I hate beating the D&D references over the head, it's like being a Dungeon Master and saying you created a game - you mostly used an existing game to develop content, which is fine, but call it what it is. Even if the game has been heavily modified, it's an existing system with its own parts that contributed more to your game than you actually did. In fact, while I'm on the subject, saying you "made a game" with Gamemaker is kind of insulting to its developers, though I'd bet they don't really think of it that way.

Anyway, it's NaNoWriMo and I'm a couple thousand words behind, and the holiday is going to eat up three days, so I gotta get moving on that.
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Last edited by Nodlove : 11-24-2014 at 06:46 PM. Reason: Brevity
  #8  
Old 11-25-2014, 06:57 PM
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I'm still unsure why everyone keeps saying gamemaker isn't programming, the language is very similar to Javascript(One of these days, I'm going to have to get deeper into that, any suggestions in where to start if you already know the basics?), it's just that it has a ton of built in things like instance_create(x, y, inst). Although I guess they did go a littler overboard with the built in functions/variables...like x, y, about a trillion functions... But what's fun is I like to sometimes do things that achieve the same things there functions do, except purely through data structures I made :3

Either way I think I would still recommend gamemaker to beginners, but everyone has their opinion :P
  #9  
Old 11-25-2014, 08:58 PM
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I'm still unsure why everyone keeps saying gamemaker isn't programming, the language is very similar to Javascript(One of these days, I'm going to have to get deeper into that, any suggestions in where to start if you already know the basics?), it's just that it has a ton of built in things like instance_create(x, y, inst). Although I guess they did go a littler overboard with the built in functions/variables...like x, y, about a trillion functions...

Either way I think I would still recommend gamemaker to beginners, but everyone has their opinion :P
The keyword in the name Javascript is "script." JS is a SCRIPTING language, not a programming language. I understand how you would make that mistake, though, it's sometimes similar and might feel the same, but scripting for a game engine isn't programming.

From the Wikipedia article about gamemaker:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Game Maker Language (GML) is the primary scripting language...
That's all you need to read to know it's not a programming language.

Read a book on Python. Though it gets a bad rep as being a scripting language (people use it for scripting in their own programs), it's also a standalone programming language, which is much more respectable than gamemaker. PyGame is a library that is quite flexible in terms of programming real games, and the best part of the language is how user-friendly it is. You won't see the strange brackets and semi-colons out and about.

*EDIT: http://www.pygame.org/ has a lot of tutorials (http://www.pygame.org/wiki/tutorials), and Python and Java fused together form the language used to make an amazing game (wink, wink).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
But what's fun is I like to sometimes do things that achieve the same things there functions do, except purely through data structures I made :3
Rebuilding libraries is great for practice, but extremely impractical and a great way to create highly exploitable code.
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Last edited by Nodlove : 11-26-2014 at 12:03 AM.
  #10  
Old 11-26-2014, 03:41 PM
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Ohhhhhhhhh, my problem here is I though scripting was the same thing as programming ._.
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Old 08-14-2015, 12:18 PM
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Well considering I've only put in about 8 hours total, I already have most of the UI completed and have started into the networking aspect of it... I doubt it would take "thousands" of man hours... https://www.dropbox.com/s/6zgtrg8hfw...yvern.jar?dl=0
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Old 08-30-2015, 03:22 PM
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I think it would take them ten years and the requirement of being paid for being a programmer.
  #13  
Old 09-13-2015, 09:23 PM
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Well considering I've only put in about 8 hours total, I already have most of the UI completed and have started into the networking aspect of it... I doubt it would take "thousands" of man hours... https://www.dropbox.com/s/6zgtrg8hfw...yvern.jar?dl=0
I wouldn't say that's most of the UI. You don't have the player information, nor any movement capabilities. Also, in the original game, all of those boxes on the right were independently (sometimes co-dependently) scalable. Also there's some stuff on the left side of the screen that is missing. You have some of the HUD done, but the UI is far from complete.

Displaying the message the player enters in the above box is not even close to how difficult a full chat system would be to create (your system has quite a few bugs anyway, like the words being appended to the top rather than the bottom of the chat, so when it's scrolling, the oldest stuff is first, not to mention that it's going to the wrong text box when enter is hit), and having a gray box in the center of blackness is far from having a level even mapped, let alone being able to navigate that level and having dynamic content within that level.

This looks like someone spent an hour or two on it just playing around, especially since you didn't create any of the art assets that are in it (and technically you're violating the EULA of the map editor and/or game client by taking those art assets and using them in your little demo program).

So anyway, long story short, this is far from a complete game, and you're insulting Rhialto and all of the other devs (including the wizards) by flaunting this like it's something special. A half-baked GUI does not a game make.

Anyone else notice that SlothyJoe and Josiah sound similar...? Hm.
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Last edited by Nodlove : 09-13-2015 at 09:33 PM.
  #14  
Old 09-13-2015, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Nodlove View Post
Anyone else notice that SlothyJoe and Josiah sound similar...? Hm.
Oui. Au début, je pensais que Josiah fabriqué un nouveau nom pour solliciter de l'aide parce que personne ne le prend au sérieux. Mais je suis vérifié et ils sont légitimement pas la même personne.
  #15  
Old 09-13-2015, 11:16 PM
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Oui. Au début, je pensais que Josiah fabriqué un nouveau nom pour solliciter de l'aide parce que personne ne le prend au sérieux. Mais je suis vérifié et ils sont légitimement pas la même personne.
Voilà soit vraiment triste, ou vraiment hilarant. Était-il basé sur l'adresse IP? Peut-être il a déménagé?
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Old 09-13-2015, 11:25 PM
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Peut-être il a déménagé?
C'est possible mais c'est un relocalisation significative à faire.
  #17  
Old 09-14-2015, 06:07 PM
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I wouldn't say that's most of the UI. You don't have the player information, nor any movement capabilities. Also, in the original game, all of those boxes on the right were independently (sometimes co-dependently) scalable. Also there's some stuff on the left side of the screen that is missing. You have some of the HUD done, but the UI is far from complete.
It is 100% scalable, it's just hard coded into the system since anything I saw had basically that format, so I didn't want to go around making changes where they weren't mine to make.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodlove View Post
Displaying the message the player enters in the above box is not even close to how difficult a full chat system would be to create (your system has quite a few bugs anyway, like the words being appended to the top rather than the bottom of the chat, so when it's scrolling, the oldest stuff is first, not to mention that it's going to the wrong text box when enter is hit)
As for where it enters when text is written that seemed like the logical way to do it. I couldn't find videos of people actively typing so all I could reverse engineer was where it was to be placed and generally what it looked like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodlove View Post
and having a gray box in the center of blackness is far from having a level even mapped, let alone being able to navigate that level and having dynamic content within that level.
As for the chat system, it is fully functional, I can run a 'local server' for it and it'll output chat to any client connected, and that's the same kind of method I would handle the rest of in between data. It does have a form of key press listener attached to it. I didn't want to fully form it out in one manner because I was hoping some of the wizards would help me out in making it fall in line with the old Wyvern by being able to look at their map data to see how things interacted without stealing it from Cabochon. Unfortunately I was unsuccessful in that endeavor so I've started going about it in a different manner, and am going to just have to make it as close as possible. As for the maps I'm also making a similar more rudimentary map making program, it does interpret maps but again, I was hoping I could get help from a wizard to make it fall in line with the old, not something totally different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodlove View Post
This looks like someone spent an hour or two on it just playing around, especially since you didn't create any of the art assets that are in it (and technically you're violating the EULA of the map editor and/or game client by taking those art assets and using them in your little demo program).
And yes, I wasn't sure of this or not, so I went about downloading sprites to fill in for the rest from a free open art website, I had a talk with Arilou a while back but I havn't had a chance to update it in the program without breaking everything, so in the mean time I'm woring on resizing, filling, etc. And I had even talked to him at one point and made it clear that I had no intentions of being demeaning what had already been done with Wyvern, just that, as we said in that specific chat, more lines of code != higher quality. I could make a simple program that just says "hello world", and yet make it thousands of lines of unnecessary code.
  #18  
Old 09-15-2015, 09:18 AM
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C'est possible mais c'est un relocalisation significative à faire.
Il babille comme Josiah, comme si il a de nombreuses réalisations, et se réfère à "Bonjour tout le monde" comme si elle est une grande réussite...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlothyJoe View Post
It is 100% scalable, it's just hard coded into the system since anything I saw had basically that format, so I didn't want to go around making changes where they weren't mine to make.
Did you actually play the game? There were handles that you could drag to make, for example, the chat box larger.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SlothyJoe View Post
As for where it enters when text is written that seemed like the logical way to do it. I couldn't find videos of people actively typing so all I could reverse engineer was where it was to be placed and generally what it looked like.
The last written message displays at the top of the list. That is a problem, since it scrolls down, and you can't see the top message anymore after a few submits.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SlothyJoe View Post
As for the chat system, it is fully functional, I can run a 'local server' for it and it'll output chat to any client connected, and that's the same kind of method I would handle the rest of in between data. It does have a form of key press listener attached to it. I didn't want to fully form it out in one manner because I was hoping some of the wizards would help me out in making it fall in line with the old Wyvern by being able to look at their map data to see how things interacted without stealing it from Cabochon. Unfortunately I was unsuccessful in that endeavor so I've started going about it in a different manner, and am going to just have to make it as close as possible. As for the maps I'm also making a similar more rudimentary map making program, it does interpret maps but again, I was hoping I could get help from a wizard to make it fall in line with the old, not something totally different.
Video capture? I'm interested to see this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SlothyJoe View Post
And yes, I wasn't sure of this or not, so I went about downloading sprites to fill in for the rest from a free open art website, I had a talk with Arilou a while back but I havn't had a chance to update it in the program without breaking everything, so in the mean time I'm woring on resizing, filling, etc. And I had even talked to him at one point and made it clear that I had no intentions of being demeaning what had already been done with Wyvern, just that, as we said in that specific chat, more lines of code != higher quality. I could make a simple program that just says "hello world", and yet make it thousands of lines of unnecessary code.
Well, obfuscation aside, more lines of code generally means more progress.

All of your responses aside, the hardest parts of making a game aren't here. This is a simple GUI. I understand you spent 8 hours or so on it, but there's nothing more than an extremely simple GUI. Not difficult to make with Java Swing, a Jython install, and an afternoon. My initial point was you said that the game shouldn't take thousands of man hours, but it would. I'd be interested, though, to see your continued progress. I don't mean to discourage you, either, I'd love a game like Wyvern to play.
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  #19  
Old 09-15-2015, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Nodlove View Post
The last written message displays at the top of the list. That is a problem, since it scrolls down, and you can't see the top message anymore after a few submits.

Video capture? I'm interested to see this.
I didn't change anything, is there still a weird way of viewing the text?
YouTube

It's just a quick demo, and you have to have those 2 credential files at the root (so C:\*.txt). It should run locally if you'd like to try it yourself, I'm working on getting it to port forward to my home PC and maybe get a ghetto chat server running at least.
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Old 09-15-2015, 07:15 PM
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Jacksparow has just set foot in the Tutorial Tower
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just so you know cobochon, and the sprites in that are all copywritten material.
 


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