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  #1  
Old 02-01-2013, 10:58 AM
thedib thedib is offline
 

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Default mutating wyverns....

So I was sitting here mulling over Arilou's last post about open sourcing, and how it wouldn't even be close to the same game it is in our minds. I started thinking about mutated wyverns, and I'll give you what struck me and let me know what you think.

Go with a basic 3d world, similar in construction to Minecraft classic, add in Wyverns nuts and bolts a.k.a. chat/leveling/skills/guild/spell/crafting systems (there are others I'm undoubtedly forgetting).

this is not what really appealed to me after more thought----->And now where this really appealed to me was for map building, and the relative ease that ANY person can make areas using very simple blocks, exactly like in minecraft, but with an npc editor for quests, static mob spawns etc etc. Good is another matter.

What really appealed to me was the various items that let you fly, pvp would be epic!

Make the game free, or as cheap as possible(perhaps 1-5$ a month) huge world, with very little in it. Think a NV equiv, tutorials for map making and game play, macros, crafting etc. A bulding or something in the outer world it would be an entrance to a player created area, very much like in wyvern And then there is a marketplace to buy player content based on user ratings(think android market on your cell phone, variable prices based on rating etc, caps at like 1$) all would be hosted for download, and there would have to be a moderation process of rating it for content(how violent are the quests, did they make a castle that looks like a giant blow up doll from a distance etc etc) and except for needed instances totally mmo.

The map maker is always free, that way if a person wants to make a good contribution to the game they can play the whole game for a kind of free

Last edited by thedib : 02-01-2013 at 11:39 AM.
  #2  
Old 02-01-2013, 05:16 PM
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As I said in that thread, you can always do what others have and use Crossfire's engine as a base for your own game. It has much of the things you guys seem to want in one including a map editor: http://crossfire.real-time.com/editors/index.html
  #3  
Old 02-02-2013, 12:24 PM
thedib thedib is offline
 

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I wasn't so much planning on making the game it was more just what occurred to me, besides all I know of java is from webdesign classes :S. Tbh I havn't programmed anything in nearly 8 years, but if I went back Id probably go back to my c/c++, its just what I knew best and would pick back up the fastest.

I looked up the crossfire map editor, its fine for a dev team, or nerds in general, but Id honestly want it to be about as hard to make maps as it is to play minecraft classic, simply put, brain dead simple, no previous castle building experience required. watch a 10 minute tutorial and If you want an npc, scroll to the block, place them, window pops up for you to set text, quest triggers etc etc. I'm looking for a code copy of crossfire atm, if nothing else looking over the various systems will give me some ideas of the algorithms Id have to think out to make what I want work.

Last edited by thedib : 02-02-2013 at 12:41 PM.
  #4  
Old 02-02-2013, 12:36 PM
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Yes, I figured as much. The point though is that there are resources out there that will allow people to do these kinds of things already. So it's rather silly to be sitting around, plotting all the amazing things you will do (or will like to see done) if Wyvern ever became open source. A simple google search will not only reveal things like Crossfire, but newer open source game engines that didn't get their beginnings around 20 years ago and therefore aren't as badly outdated as Wyvern and Crossfire are.

Edit: Try Daimonin: http://www.daimonin.org/ Its an open source game that was derived from Crossfire and I believe it also has its own map editor.
  #5  
Old 02-02-2013, 12:49 PM
thedib thedib is offline
 

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For the record Im so not for open sourcing wyvern, spending hours smashing my head against my keyboard to figure out how to do the quests for the various guilds was a huge part of why I like wyvern over wow, there is no wowhead easy mode. What you accomplished in game was what you accomplished. Now on to the rest of the real world and how thats not as widely marketable cause most people resemble either lemmings or sheep.

What I was really looking for was people opinions on the idea, not another open source rant, its half of the conversations on the forums these days

Thanks for the info btw, Handy stuffs to be found

Daimonin's website is about as easy to figure out as cabochons was the first time I was on it lol, designed with this evil "the info's there were just gunna taunt and tell you about it and make you look for 10 minutes to find it bwahahahahaha" mindset.

Ok after reading Daimonin's first couple map making tutorials I think they go wrong in a few places, too many nerd words at the beginning. Its all just terminology but its intimidating, and when they say things like input coordinates, thats what Id want to avoid, I dont want you to enter coordinates for anything, I want you to seriously fly your probably custom wizardly sprite over to where you want the exit, and you place an exit tile/block it then auto asks you where it needs to link to. <-Downside: For instance your making a forest path, its about 6-7 tiles wide, up to the height of the tree canopy, say 6-7 high at the edge of the map, you would have to place a solid wall of tiles and have them all linked so you catch flying characters for zone exit.

I guess what I mainly want in the map editor is that you become the mouse pointer, very simple selection of blocks/tiles/npc's. Easy hot keying of say 10 tiles that could be set with certain attributes and placed without being hindered by doing the same repetitive fill in again and again, I wasnt kidding when I said adapted minecraft classic for map creation. I want map creation to feel a bit like a game itself.

Last edited by thedib : 02-02-2013 at 01:58 PM.
  #6  
Old 02-02-2013, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedib View Post
I want you to seriously fly your probably custom wizardly sprite over to where you want the exit, and you place an exit tile/block it then auto asks you where it needs to link to.
That won't work. When you place the teleporter and it asks you where to link it to you would either need to input the map path and coordinates, same as you have to do now, or you would need to know what the map path (and possibly coordinates) are in order to go to that map and position yourself on the tile where you want the teleporter to lead to. You would then need to do something to signal that this is where you want the last teleporter you placed to go to and then you'd have to place another teleporter and return to the previous map so you could do the same there.

Now, if it isn't controlled by your character, you could have a map editor where you click on a tile for the teleporter and it asks you to go to another map in another window and click on the spot you want to link it to. Thereby skipping having to input coordinates. However, while it may not be fun to do, obtaining coordinates and setting teleporters are insanely easy to do.

In Wyvern's map editor, you scroll your mouse over the tile where you want your teleporter to lead to and the coordinates will be displayed for you. So you just go back to where you want to place the teleporter, right click, click on create teleporter, type in those coordinates it gave you, and tell the editor which map you want the player to go to by typing the path. For example, if I wanted a player to appear in the middle of the Amita slums I'd set the path to wiz/arilou/amita/village/slums and the coordinates to say 12,10.

Wizards can also get this information in-game by standing over the tile of their choice and typing "where." So if there was a in-game map editor, like you seem to desire, they could use that to get the coordinates. But they'd need to know how to get there first, either by knowing the map path or, there could be a feature that allowed them to scroll through a list of the maps they created and click on the name of the one they wanted to go to in order to transport there. However, unless they set the start coordinates for that map, they will automatically be taken to 0,0 (aka the top left corner) and that could lead to them getting trapped. In order to get to where they want the teleporter to go to, in that scenario, they would either have to have the ability to move through blockable objects within their own maps or they'd have to re-position themselves by using a command that allows them to go to coordinates that they specified. In the case of the latter, you could get out by typing in random ones, but if you have lots of blocked off portions in your map and you want a teleporter to lead to a specific one, you're going to have to be very specific in order to get there using this method.

Fyi - There's also the potential for problems if the start location coordinates aren't given. Meaning, the location that people will go to in the map if no coordinates are given. We had a couple of wizards who ignored the wizard guidelines and never bothered to fill them up and not only was it super annoying for other wizards when they had to go to those maps directly, but there was once a bug that would ignore a teleporter's coordinates when the map first loaded, thereby taking players to 0,0. Not only did people get trapped that way, but they got into areas they shouldn't, like behind the fences in banks.

Also btw, an overly simplistic map editor setup may make it easier for everyday people to utilize, but it also comes at a loss quality in the maps that get churned out from such a system. Arguably, you're going to have a loss to quality to begin with as you're mostly pandering to people who don't have the skills required to utilize more complicated features. However, those more complicated features also let map makers make high quality, original designs. Some of those things just can't be dumb'd down, like making arch files - We used to have a map editor that wouldn't recognize new arch files and the map editor that did was rather complicated to set up. Needless to say, the quality of people's maps suffered and while it took more work to put them together and could be be extremely tedious at times, players got more interesting and exciting maps to enjoy. So you have to consider that there's a balance between having map design being "fun" and having gameplay being fun as the more fun you make it for one, the less fun it is likely to be for the other.
  #7  
Old 02-02-2013, 11:14 PM
thedib thedib is offline
 

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Don't forget 3d coords would not just be x,y but the always loveable x,y,z and sometimes w Im guessing for some spell effects.

Ideally since during map development there would be no monster movement(or preferably a pause button for testing) and no player traffic. You could use a much broader scale ui, that with a mousewheel scroll out could show zone beside zone (If you've ever played the game Spore, think scrolling from the world out into local space and then the larger galaxy. With each world representing one of the maps in the file, each world could have its own moons(subfolders/inner maps/houses etc) with the interstellar pathways representing your "rope's" as well as a new file option). A "rope" is what the wizard gets to hold the end of after placing a teleport tile, he then runs(scrolls out and selects file location) to the tile wanted and press's set. Even if the next tile is in a zone that has nothing in it yet, if you go back to the block to modify it later, hit the reset "rope" option and run it to a new location.

Once again ideally you could setup a clone of that block and rope and set it as a hotkey and make your teleport wall, all points on the wall would just happen to lead to the same spot in the next zone, not perfect but workable, and if a person really wanted each square to correspond with a different one they would of course be able to.

As an afterthought I realized you could use the teleporter roping scenario to auto create folders for each zone every time you created a new it became its own subfolder, and anything linked from that would be created within, very tidy. I would use a different color to represent the last rope path in the case of modifying, to keep the last location on the screen. Going to a whole new location is of course an option.

What you said about wizards not following the guidlines got my attention, if they don't place the rope, Id make the block inactive and flash till fixed, works as a good reminder as well if you want to create a city quick and come back and do buildings interiors later.

I think the wizards sprite would need to have a toggle for flight/flying through objects, just too much of a nightmare to work in a 3d world like Im imagining otherwise, both for ease of mobility and testing. And as another after thought xray vision, the ability to temporarily turn down the opacity of certain kinds of blocks.

I don't so much want it to be simple, just simple to work with and alot of it behind a visual curtain, I still plan on having arch files in ever sense of the word, I just want it to take someone with knowledge similar to yours working with it to really realize that, thats what they are really manipulating. Your right though, there is a large potential for loss of quality, purely dependent on how many features I can smooth into simple nonbrain killing visual representations of themselves. Some things would end up like in other systems Ive no doubt just on ease of coding and time constraints, especially to start. But when I look at some of the things people have made in minecraft with simple pressure sensors and tracks, everything from vending machines to connect four, Im pretty sure it would be pushed in all the flexibility I could make it hold, even if theres 1000 abysmal creations for each true masterpiece.

Was thinking about rd's and how to do them, Im almost thinking set map dimensions, fill the whole thing with one type of block automatically, and have a worm program that starts randomly in the map with a teleport in block, then goes and cuts through the map randomly but since our worm has object collision it cant collide with itself, give it sight 4-6 blocks ahead of itself. Every 10-20 blocks it flips a coin to grow another head(this one has no collision objections, and terminates upon running back into the greater worm/itself or reaches its randomly determined block gobbling life number to create deadends) when the first head travels a set number of blocks it terminates itself and creates a teleport to the next zone. Fill in double check to make sure the monsters spawn within the walls and presto instant rd. Mind you rd's will be 3 dimensional, the worm may burrow straight down( or up!) 30 blocks, bring your amulet of the eagle or your rope youll need them sooner or later.

Rereading what you said about making it fun for one vs the other I agree thats very much how its done, though I have to admit, if you could accomplish turning the development side of the game into something fun, and still keep the gameplay up, I think theres good money potential. There is some control in moderation, or even haveing a free test type realm that hosts most anything for x amount of time(have a time appeals system as well for longer projects, and keep data stored locally so its not totally lost in case of future potential wizards return), and a more heavily quality moderated realm matching more of my original marketplace comment. Tbh a certain rating bar that could be hit based on freerealm votes could be the way onto the pay server, rating on the pay server determines the value of the content?

Last edited by thedib : 02-03-2013 at 02:42 AM.
  #8  
Old 02-06-2013, 10:17 PM
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Main Highlights of Wyvern
-LQ's
-Quests
-Miniquests
-Moderation
-RD
-Unique class system and race
-Wyvern

You copy that, and put it in a new game, and it will be great....a 3D game would be nice...
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  #9  
Old 02-06-2013, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbringer Of Good Stuff View Post
Main Highlights of Wyvern
-LQ's
-Quests
-Miniquests
-Moderation
-RD
-Unique class system and race
-Wyvern

You copy that, and put it in a new game, and it will be great....a 3D game would be nice...
The part where the game has to have quests, mods, RDs, etc., seems pretty difficult to program by oneself to begin with; however, the part where the game has to copy Wyvern is impossible. Thedib (and the other kid before him) seems to think that there's some magical 3D engine out there that will create everything for him. Where that is true of FPS games for the most part, an MMORPG is a great undertaking and not to be taken lightly. Just to any search of "I'm making my own MMORPG" and see how many people across the internet laugh at the people who posted it. Any person who is really going to make their own MMORPG is not on internet forums talking about it, they are sitting and doing it.

Saying, "Oh, and there could be X" N times (where X is equal to some awesome subsystem) yields a time(T) equal to the time taken for a human explanation of the subsystem(t) times approximately X^N, making the equation T = t*X^N (Where x, n > 1) to actually program and implement into the system (from my personal programming experience). This does not include time for testing, debugging, or smashing ones face into his or her keyboard.

Oh... and:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedib View Post
even if theres 1000 abysmal creations for each true masterpiece.
I'd increase that 1,000 to about 100,000, and that's even generous odds.

Btw, there should never be a content rating on a Wyvern clone, unless that rating is akin to E for Everyone by the ESRB.

I miss Wyvern, too, but one overenthusiastic/overambitious player with fantastical expectations is not going to recreate it alone.
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Last edited by Nodlove : 02-07-2013 at 08:26 PM.
  #10  
Old 02-23-2013, 10:06 AM
thedib thedib is offline
 

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Sorry I havn't replied sooner its been a really busy couple of weeks at work. I'm not actually planning on making a game its pure theory crafting(I feel like I'm repeating myself alot on this point).

I wouldn't copy wyvern as it sits, it is impossible, what is possible is to take elements of it that helped make it amazing. The open class/race/spell/guild system as well as the player created content.

While looking around I did find a good open source version of minecraft, tbh it already includes many of the systems I'd need, Questing and the character development are the big things that would have to be added. And just fyi my goal would be to create the system for other people to create amazing maps/content and have it feel like a game itself to create them, that is the crux of the whole idea, you guys are getting hung up on minor features and other things that there are many valid open source examples of all over the internet. Your right in saying that it would take time, most of it is well documented old hat stuff, yet time consuming to integrate and test. But seeing as how I'm not planning to apply code to screen, the time factor is irrelevant.

What are your thoughts on a 3d map builder for an mmorpg with a similar class system to wyvern, and map creation that feels very similar to minecraft, with a bit more of an Im an amazing wizard of creation feel to it?

The exact reason you could never recreate wyvern, is the player driven content, Id like to hypothetically give something to the world thats a similar 3d platform for others creativity.

ps. If I was working on creating something, id be looking for feedback on the idea before I ever started, then recruit people to help with the project theres forums for game development all over the web. I'm not the kind of person the gets daunted easily by what most people see as impossible, Im also not dumb enough to try a project like this solo.

pps. I don't want to hear about how hard or how long it would take, those are obvious points, and omg so well documented on these forums. I also don't care about the current open sourcing bs, its a continual rant for brownie points half the time and not important. What im looking for and not getting is feedback about the actual idea, would you be interested in playing the game/creating maps in such a fashion? Playing a 3d version of wyverns rpg system in a world that looks like minecraft, with the map building itself feeling as close to a game as humanly possible? Having a player rated system for content that allows wizards to get maps onto pay servers to pay them for their creativity?

Last edited by thedib : 02-23-2013 at 10:44 AM.
  #11  
Old 02-23-2013, 02:39 PM
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Here is a summary of my thoughts on this:

My favorite aspect of Wyvern was the incredibly fast combat system that occurred at higher levels. A 3D control system would be too "clunky".
  #12  
Old 02-24-2013, 09:55 AM
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K I'll put some thought into it, I was quite a fan of the pvp at 20 plus(given my xp is a bit outdated, I missed like a year and a half or so of the server being up and alot of changes)tbh I rather liked the thought of the 3d combat with the huge spell selection, flying around, dropping earthwalls when I see a mage flinging a fireball or dragons breath at me and what not but I do see how it could be clunky now that you mention it.

To start my thoughts were that the game would be played in first person view, making pvp into alot of chase and dodge. Hard to target and connect against a good player, with a look around/movement system similar to wow, and a more standard fps reticule for targeting it would have huge effect on what spells were more prized over others. Dragons breath and similar spells would actually be a cone so they could go up and down as well, fireballs explode in a 3d orb, thoughts?

ps. theres a slow/speed spell in wyvern isn't there?

Last edited by thedib : 02-24-2013 at 10:43 AM.
  #13  
Old 02-24-2013, 01:05 PM
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There is a slow spell (evocation of earth) which is a cone and slows movement speed, and after a later update it also slows attack speed.

There is a speed spell (enchantment of air) that increases movement speed of the caster.

All spells can be found here, some descriptions may be outdated:

http://web.archive.org/web/201011201...yer/spell_list

Another problem that I thought would be common is collisions with spells like earth wall or more generally, hiding from spells behind walls. I commonly used an alias to bring up a 3x1 wall of earth to cause mages' ball spells to blow up before they hit their target. There could be instances where spells don't collide with the earth wall as intended and it ends up with things like fireballs going straight through the earth wall (most likely near the edges) or a cone spell hitting someone hiding behind the earth wall. The 3D aspect is what greatly increases the difficulty of creating a reliable collision system that won't anger players who expected to be safe hiding behind an object or wall.

I'm positive that we don't have the same vision of a "3D Wyvern" in our minds but these are some of the issues of what I am imagining and few things are as game breaking as faulty collision detection.

I don't mean to bash the idea of a 3D version of Wyvern but I think it would be better if time and effort was spent on a 2D graphical MUD similar to Wyvern, even more so with a dedicated and reliable leader. Especially now with the smart phone market I'm sure people would go crazy over a mobile graphical MUD.
  #14  
Old 02-24-2013, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracco View Post
Here is a summary of my thoughts on this:

My favorite aspect of Wyvern was the incredibly fast combat system that occurred at higher levels. A 3D control system would be too "clunky".
I agree. As cool as 3d looks, the fast-paced combat system would be extremely hard to replicate.
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