Wyvern Forums

Review Wyvern Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Arcade
Go Back   Wyvern Forums > Archive > Wyvern Forums Archive > Wyvern Development
Home Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chatbox Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Wyvern Development Here you can discuss anything and everything involving creating your own content for Wyvern. Have a problem with an arch file or a map? Want to show off something you've been working on? If so this is the place for you.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-01-2016, 03:11 PM
Arilou's Avatar
Arilou Arilou is offline
Forum Admin
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Arilou has disabled reputation
Default Jacksparow and Map Design

Okay so last night I was trying to explain to Jacksparow why it was to his benefit to hold off on doing serious map design until he knows exactly what he he'd have access to with the release of a new map editor:

Quote:
Arilou: Fyi - You realize that there are ton of general files that you will have access to in a new map editor which you currently do not, yes? It's really not in your best interest to spend time making maps with the limited images and files that you currently have access to.

jacksparow: Making them with the current one still helps create working teleporters, and a decent layout of what you have planned. But I'd prefer to be able to contribute some content with the off chance it's approved. Then be playing in a game with nothing to do.

Arilou: I disagree. Knowing what you have access to is part of the process of making a good map. If you just want to mess around and practice a bit that's cool but expect to have to put in a bunch of work changing things if you try to create full maps now.
To expand on what I said last night; it's nice that you're getting into the details of measurement but another detail oriented aspect that you have to realize is important is that what you populate your map with determines the kind of map you're making. If your goal is just to create layouts and then populate them/tweak the details you are doing it wrong.

First of all, as it pertains to terrain/walls, it's not as simple as just using what you have now and then swapping them out with more fancy versions later. Here's a quote from Rhialto:

"Indoor maps don't have to be square, either. Think of a lobby in a five-star hotel, or an atrium in an upscale shopping mall, or a restaurant in a theme park. Square is ugly, and says: "This is a cheap, low-quality building." Feel free to use lots of terrain/empty in your map to get the look and feel just right. You don't have to fill all the space with "stuff". Thrain's Mist Temple, one of the very earliest maps in the game, has an interesting floor plan made of three overlapping rectangles, forming a Y-shape. Take a look."


http://web.archive.org/web/200412082...es.html#themes

If you don't have an eye for it may be hard to understand why, but something as simple as a different wall will warrant a different design and, more importantly, floor designs will change the shape of a map. If you've ever been to the Amita Orc Tower you will notice that I created a unique terrain design, which I used elsewhere in Amita when I wanted to indicate that their construction came from the same source. Well, the creation of that design impacted the shape of the maps that I used it in. So if you suddenly get access to a bunch more terrain options and decide to do the same with your maps, you should expect to have the redo your earlier wall placement decisions and possibly even scrap them altogether.

Second of all, the more important aspect pertains to how you populate a map. I designed layouts based on what I wanted to put in it. I didn't design layouts and then throw stuff into them. That is lazy and leads to substandard maps. This is particularly important when it comes to monster maps because you need to pay very careful attention to designing layouts based on the exact monsters you want to use in order to create the best playing experiencing for players. This is the difference between creating a big square map and dumping an Arch Dracolich in it and creating a smart, well designed map that requires players to take note of their surroundings when devising a strategy for tackling their opponents.

So that's why it's good to be playing around and practicing but it's not good to be attempting to do any heavy lifting right now. And keep in mind that's not the only reason why; it's problematic on multiple levels that I didn't go into here.

Also, I got to the point where I wouldn't even have designed a whole section of an area without being able to test it live as I went along because I needed to see how someone would move around in it and then adjust the design appropriately.

I have told the story about how I came up with the idea to split Amita into sections after actually running around through Amita on a low level alt that I made and getting annoyed at how movement worked when navigating between structures. Originally, Amita was designed in a day and went live rather quickly after testing it on my flying wizard account. When I finally got around to doing a more thorough test of the area it radically changed the design. For Amita, that's not a huge deal because it was just one map that I had to throw out but for complex dungeons where you're moving around between rooms that are interconnected in interesting ways, this is critical to avoiding wasting a lot of time. Think, if you've ever been there, of the Forgotten Oak castle with all the different ways in which you can navigate through it. Being able to see it all in one massive map was helpful but so was being able to test it as I went along.

In the past, the inability to do that has been a huge stumbling block for players seeking to create their first area. It's the reason we had so much difficulty finding new mapmakers as the years went on (our standards progressed past the point where people had an easy time making acceptable maps without being able to test them first). However, if Rhialto finally corrects that, as he said he would, you should allow yourself to take advantage of that. Don't waste time on maps that you can't test as you go before you see if that is something that you'll be able to do.
  #2  
Old 03-02-2016, 12:43 PM
Raiza's Avatar
Raiza Raiza is offline
 

Join Date: Jun 2012
Raiza has just set foot in the Tutorial Tower
Default

Another issue me and a few others were talking about not to long ago. Legal rights, who owns the maps once they are uploaded to the server? Some of you may not care, but to others they wouldn't like their work being "taken" from them, that once it gets uploaded they no longer have any say on what happens to it. And as I'm sure it is still fresh in the minds of the Wizards, when wyvern went down; R tried to take claim on all the maps the Wizards had produced; I don't want to think he would, but he could put in place a clause that gives him full rights on the maps uploaded to the wyvern servers.

R hasn't addressed this yet and he may not until there's a working map editor to release to everyone. While its great to start generating ideals for maps; I think it is best you hold off on some hard set maps until R gives some details on the legal issues behind creating and uploading maps. That ofcourse is assuming you want to own your creations, however if it is of little concern, by all means go ahead and start making maps.

Last edited by Raiza : 03-02-2016 at 12:45 PM.
  #3  
Old 03-03-2016, 09:01 AM
Arilou's Avatar
Arilou Arilou is offline
Forum Admin
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Arilou has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza View Post
And as I'm sure it is still fresh in the minds of the Wizards, when wyvern went down; R tried to take claim on all the maps the Wizards had produced
Just to clarify; when you phrase it like that you make it sound as though he tried to steal maps. All he did was send us an email saying he would be asking us to sign our content over and that it was fine if we didn't want to do that. That happened this year (no mention was made of signing over content previously).

Anyway, I don't want to weigh into the situation as it pertains to what you guys should or shouldn't do so that's all I'm going to say right now. What you guys do is up to you.
  #4  
Old 03-04-2016, 03:05 PM
Nodlove's Avatar
Nodlove Nodlove is offline
Player Mod
 
Join Date: May 2012
Nodlove has just set foot in the Tutorial Tower
Default

I didn't read everything Arilou posted (I'm at work and I want to weigh in) so sorry if I'm touching on something already mentioned. If he wants to design maps, why not just rough out some ideas on paper, and then, after finding out the content of the new editor, tailor it to the content available? That way, if there's a quest, you can still come up with most of the details, and then it's just minor changes to implement, and the process of actually implementing the designs. Grid paper is great for this.
__________________
And then I wake up.
  #5  
Old 03-04-2016, 03:13 PM
Arilou's Avatar
Arilou Arilou is offline
Forum Admin
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Arilou has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodlove View Post
I didn't read everything Arilou posted (I'm at work and I want to weigh in) so sorry if I'm touching on something already mentioned. If he wants to design maps, why not just rough out some ideas on paper, and then, after finding out the content of the new editor, tailor it to the content available? That way, if there's a quest, you can still come up with most of the details, and then it's just minor changes to implement, and the process of actually implementing the designs. Grid paper is great for this.
Yeah, sorry, I take it as a given that any creative person is always brainstorming ideas and plotting them out through write ups and crude drawings so I didn't mention this previously. However, that is exactly what someone should be doing right now in addition to playing around/practicing with the mapeditor. Sit down, plan out ideas and then, when you have access to the proper tools, see which of those ideas you can do something with. Just don't do that planning in the mapeditor unless you want to waste a bunch of time redoing things.
  #6  
Old 03-09-2016, 11:16 AM
Nodlove's Avatar
Nodlove Nodlove is offline
Player Mod
 
Join Date: May 2012
Nodlove has just set foot in the Tutorial Tower
Default

That is definitely a good way to go. I figured you planned on paper (since you seem fairly meticulous about things), but some folks don't think to do that first when planning an area. Makes much more sense than doing a bunch of planning directly in the Map Editor, though using it for practice is also a good idea, so long as ones heart is not fully invested in the maps created with the old editor.
__________________
And then I wake up.
 


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Questions about map design as a Wizard igorith Wyvern Development 4 03-21-2012 08:10 PM

Wyvern Forums
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:58 PM.

Forum: Contact Us - Archive - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.