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  #61  
Old 01-18-2013, 06:41 PM
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first of all i really dont care if LOL is an acrylum or whatever and 2nd what is a BRMA annnnd.....forgot the other ones

btw the hard part is not programming but planning the game..... for examply the naga thing he did was awesome so i want like... some kind of shapeshifter..... but not a naga cause the to much the same... btw i remembered the other one....annnd i forgot again nvm
  #62  
Old 01-18-2013, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brionac View Post
What year did the game go live, and all that?
*raises an eyebrow* Well, right before the game went down we celebrated a 10 year anniversary on February 4th. So 10 years before that would be a good a bet.
  #63  
Old 01-18-2013, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
first of all i really dont care if LOL is an acrylum or whatever and 2nd what is a BRMA annnnd.....forgot the other ones

btw the hard part is not programming but planning the game..... for examply the naga thing he did was awesome so i want like... some kind of shapeshifter..... but not a naga cause the to much the same... btw i remembered the other one....annnd i forgot again nvm
Nagas weren't his idea.

Your writing hurts my eyes, go back to 5th grade english class please.
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  #64  
Old 01-18-2013, 10:41 PM
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That would make sense Arilou.. geez, I wish I would have thought about it myself for a second.
  #65  
Old 01-19-2013, 12:23 AM
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Frosten imagine his coding...
  #66  
Old 01-19-2013, 10:10 AM
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I'm honestly interested in his game. What I say we do is encourage him, so he will go make his game and leave us alone.

So, dat gam is sounds sweats bro i cant wat 4 it!!!!!1!!!
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  #67  
Old 01-23-2013, 12:55 AM
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I don't care if you hate my typing skills. And if you really wanted Wyvern back up you would care about my game lol, BTW if it wasn't his idea for Nagas who's was it???
  #68  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:14 AM
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Nagas are mythological creatures found predominantly in Hindu belief - Generally, game designers have a solid grasp of not just the language they're designing their game in, but history as well. I say this because it's interesting that you would write that you think people would be satisfied with your fictitious game as an alternative for Wyvern when Wyvern was born from the imaginations of multiple individuals who were highly versed in history, mythology, and fantasy - Rhialto, Kiz, and others have quite a bit of experience with D&D, while I personally am a lifelong student of history/mythology (hence, I majored in history while in college). Meanwhile, I and most wizards are avid readers of, among other things, fantasy. These backgrounds (that I have only barely touched upon) are the reason for everything in the game from our unique spell system, to our selection of monsters/races/armor/weapons, to the areas/quests/stories we designed, and so on.
  #69  
Old 01-24-2013, 07:04 PM
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It gives me so much rage, when people talk about trying to recreate "Wyvern" or making their own "game".

I personally advocate for the open sourcing of Wyvern, or if people really care, to start making a "clone" like it, and open sourcing that (desperate option).

But who has time for that, right?!
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  #70  
Old 01-24-2013, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbringer Of Good Stuff View Post
It gives me so much rage, when people talk about trying to recreate "Wyvern" or making their own "game".
Wow there's actually someone out there who's inane ramblings are capable of getting on Harbriner's nerves. What a fascinating turn of events.

Quote:
But who has time for that, right?!
Apparently a 13 year old in junior high does. Which makes sense because he's only semi-recently out of elementary school where, among just beginning to learn the complexities of division and multiplication, he had plenty of time to learn to code at the level of people who have gone to college and then went on go on to careers relating to their studies. You know, people who taken an average of, I'd say perhaps 70 credits toward their major; including courses involving very difficult math, relating to things like calculus, discrete mathematics, applied probability & statistics, and/or algebra.
  #71  
Old 01-25-2013, 11:36 AM
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Time for me to log on to oppose the Harbringer stance on open sourcing again. And I will begin with the fact that if this josiah can actually make a decent wyvern style game (not optimistic but not about to shoot down the dude if he actually is putting in effort to make said game) it could be very much alike an open source wyvern anyway. If you open source the game people will jack it around and make it into what they feel wyvern should be and then you get what equates to a wyvern clone and not the original wyvern made in the way R viewed it to be. Now if this guy makes a crummy clone (if he is even actually making a clone) then it would be a failed attempt at a game but open sourcing is not the answer. Wyvern would become the ultimate wyvern clone if it is open sourced and people were aloud to alter it the way they wanted it to be.

And for josiah. I hope that you are able to make the game that you claim to be making however the stance you have taken on this game you are making is rather childish and not supporting the idea that you are even capable of making such a game. Now maybe you have just been flustered but the points people have brought up (legal issues, pointing out countless spelling and grammatical errors that could lead to damaged and corrupted lines of code, lack of studying on history and myth to add to your game) are all legitimate and if you want to share what could be your version of wyvern and a potential masterpiece you should carry yourself in a more mature manner in order to show your confidence without sounding like a cocky child. Take what I said however you want and good luck to you on making your game if that really is what your trying to do.
  #72  
Old 01-25-2013, 01:06 PM
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I do not support this encouragement
  #73  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:37 PM
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This may just be imho and I hope this is not taken the wrong way, because I love the work the wizards have done in all their different creations, but what really stands out to me about wyvern is the framework, and how its meant to incorporate player designed maps and content, the tools designed for creating such were R's gift to all us wyvernites and we have to thank the wizards for taking and pushing that framework as far as they were able(and hopefully farther in the future) to make the great content wyvern has.

Making a basic 2d game is not incredibly difficult, I know I was doing it before I was out of high school, hell I even did a couple 3d fps's that were kinda of unartworked clones of doom, but what I learned is difficult and takes real experience and a lot deeper than high school knowledge is combining that as an mmo, chat channels, a trade system, a system for moderation, bug reporting and repair, especially a gui for both the game and the map builders, how to make it so you dont overload a server with sheer useless information and requests causing lag or capping player load. The list goes on and on and I know the wizards could give better examples than I ever could, but all of this takes a lot of forethought and planning that's only going to be there after you've dealt with and experienced these problems, and your just not going to be in these kinds of projects in high school, and what I think this kid is missing is that wyvern is NOT a basic 2d game, theres many a reason we all sit here and wait for it to come back.

Last edited by thedib : 01-25-2013 at 10:52 PM.
  #74  
Old 01-29-2013, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irlazy View Post
Time for me to log on to oppose the Harbringer stance on open sourcing again.[...]If you open source the game people will jack it around and make it into what they feel wyvern should be and then you get what equates to a wyvern clone and not the original wyvern made in the way R viewed it to be. [...] Wyvern would become the ultimate wyvern clone if it is open sourced and people were allowed to alter it the way they wanted it to be.
This is a very negative stance on an open source wyvern. It overlooks the best part of open source, community contribution. As R has a life and job he does not have the ability to spend all day fixing bugs and adding features. If wyvern went open source anybody with the free time & programming know-how could contribute. Obviously the contributions would need to be reviewed by wizards, but the point is bug fixes could come much quicker and it would really let those with comp sci skills contribute.

The current system is really tough for programmers to contribute. It is well known within the comp sci community that there is typically a huge disconnect between programmers & UI/map makers. Requiring programmers to make a decent 40 map area will eliminate all but the few skilled in both disciplines. With open source you can get these skilled programmers without requiring them to go through the tough process to become wizards.

In summary, open sourcing wyvern would allow for continuous development of bug fixes and new features even during the times that R takes an extended break.




And yes I do know there are several negatives as well, quests could be much much easier, and people could scour the code in an attempt to find exploits. Buuut, I just want to see a wyvern that grows and where people add ambitious new features to keep the game feeling modern.
  #75  
Old 01-29-2013, 11:20 PM
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When Rhialto made wizards responsible for handling promotions, he made a point to say that we were allowed to promote artists/programmers without requiring them to make an area. He also made reference to this in the quest an area guidelines as you can see below:

Quote:
(Note: if you're a good programmer or artist, you can become a Wizard without making an area. Instead, Rhialto will give you a project to complete.)
http://web.archive.org/web/201011201...idelines#great

Granted, there are still places on the website that say programmers have to make an area first (like in the wizard FAQ) and while we did promote artists without requiring them to make an area we never were able to do so for a programmer. However, the game was intended to be able to mostly address your concern in its current form (I say mostly because they wouldn't have very much access to fix game bugs, but they could free up time for those that would by doing other work and they could be given buggy content to redo from time to time). The problem is that when Rhialto stopped actively working on the game, Teshuvah and I were the ones who primarily stuck around to deal with things and we were not coders. So, although I have always very much wanted to be able to promote people based on their specific skill sets as I too have seen the pitfalls of trying to make programmers create maps first, we were not qualified to judge people based on the code they submitted to us. What we needed was a high ranking programmer willing and able to give people a yay or nay based on coding examples and assigned work that people submitted. That person then needed to be willing and able to keep on top of them and guide them in the work they did as wizards.

Of course, we have had high ranking programmers in Rhialto's absence; specially Legolas, Raeden, and Contrare. However, Legolas ended up retiring a little bit later, Raeden didn't stick around long after Legolas left, and Contrare was unwilling to judge people based on their code as he didn't feel like he could properly gauge where they were at. However, Contrare is an extremely talented programmer who was able to do a lot of the work that Rhialto normally would have done, including fixing the a ton of long standing bugs (some of which had previously proved vexing for Rhialto). So the game was able to make a tremendous push forward before being taken down and could have continued to progress greatly had Rhialto worked out the server issues that not only made it difficult for us to handle very many people playing consecutively, but also led to our current situation.
  #76  
Old 01-31-2013, 12:44 PM
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In my opinion, projects work best if they have one person manage it from the point of concept to the point of completion. This person does not have to do all the work themselves, but they do have to have the final say (benevolent dictator).

Rule by committee nearly always sucks, except in extreme cases where 'teh suckiness' becomes a defining asset to prevent rule by tyranny in an area of life that actually matters (life, liberty, and property).

“Art is never finished, only abandoned.” by Leonardo da Vinci

I feel wyvern is at the point of abandonment. Although it is not complete (and never will be), is is complete enough to be set free into the world and take on it's own life...

I would prefer to see:
  • The wyvern game engine become open source.
  • A very limited amount of game content become open source (just enough to demonstrate the engine).
  • The individual wizards to decide for themselves what to do with their content (I assume most are inactive, and will by default leave it up to R).
  • R retain copyright on the majority of wyvern content (Including but not limited to: Names, maps, art, monsters, quests, and game created databases (i.e. My lv 27 MAH sitter)).

Wyvern, the game that we know and love, would still be under private control, but maybe we would see a wyvern-like game. Such as 'System X5nGy: The revolt of the space mice.' And maybe the creator of this game will solve a bug with the wyvern engine, R will see it and implement it into wyvern.
  #77  
Old 01-31-2013, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergy View Post
[*]The individual wizards to decide for themselves what to do with their content (I assume most are inactive, and will by default leave it up to R).[*]R retain copyright on the majority of wyvern content (Including but not limited to: Names, maps, art, monsters, quests,
It's not that simple with that kind of content. The game has ownership of a lot of artwork and arch files, but there's an overwhelming amount in private wizard directories that wizards have chosen not to submit to the game (e.g. if a monster appears in a random dungeon it means a wizard turned it over to the game, but if it doesn't then chances are that they retain the rights to it). Meanwhile, very few maps actually belong to the game. Aside from the redone New Verden, Mage Guild, and Temple of Life maps there's just the world map itself and some really old ones like Minath Elion, (minus the new house and ruins maps) Alaria (minus my redos) that one King's Road Inn map that was there before I redid it, the Ziggurat, the ant hill, the light house outside New Verden, the old (not the new) untrainer, Tornaum, (minus Teshuvah's redo) and fae Wynston (without my new graveyard dungeon).

Rhialto was very clear about who retained the rights to what in the game's early documentation:

"You own any content that you create for Wyvern. We reserve the right to modify it to maintain game balance, or take it out of the game entirely, but it's still your content.
You can think of it a bit like creating your own home page on a site like GeoCities ( http://www.geocities.com). GeoCities doesn't own those home pages, but they own the site and the engine for displaying the pages, and they can veto any content they don't like.

If we sell Wyvern to someone, they may change the rules and policies regarding player-created content - that's their perogative. However, you will still own any content you've created for the game, even if ownership of the game transfers to someone else."


Source: http://web.archive.org/web/200306180....html#Content_

So, it could happen that next to nobody (who is reachable - many aren't and by default their answer would be no, not yes) would consent to giving up their work and that means that [in this hypothetical scenario] an open source Wyvern would have to rebuild the game's playable content, almost from scratch. I don't have the number of art and arch files used in the game handy, (although it is a staggering amount and, as I said, there are far more in private directories than in the core files) but there are over 10,000 maps in Wyvern and there are only 200-300 that actually belong to Cabochon Technologies (take out the really bad, dated ones and you're left with maybe 100). Of course, realistically, you'd have a mixed bag of responses from wizards, so you wouldn't have that few maps to work with, but you'd still lose a lot of stuff that made the game what it was.

You'd also have really big problem if a large chunk of content becomes unusable because so much is inter-dependent - We use so much content from each other's wiz directories in making our areas that it may surprise you just how many maps would stop working. This presents two problems. The first is the work required to fix all these maps and the second is the potential for declining willingness of wizards to make broken content available for public use. If you built a set of maps that relies heavily on wizards who refuse to make their content public, are you really going to want to put the work in to lower the quality of your maps by replacing all those things or let someone else butcher the quality of your maps? Not likely. So A, B, and C declining to let their content go public could lead to X, Y, and Z to do so as well and then you end up with a similar scenario as I initially presented.

Quote:
and game created databases (i.e. My lv 27 MAH sitter)).[/list]
Passwords are encrypted, but emails are not and I don't see Rhialto carelessly making them public for anyone to see. I also don't see him going out of his way to wipe that from everyone's xml files. So, it's probably more likely that an open source Wyvern would not come with player files as it's just easier that way.

This would especially be the case if a copy of the game remains in his control as, as stupid as it is to compete with other versions of your own game, it's even dumber to not keep such an edge over them. Although, honestly, that would never happen - Rhialto is not going to be competing with other Wyverns and the only way he would ever open source the game is if he gave up on it entirely and therefore was open sourcing it as a way for his work to live on without him. And as I've said in the past, he's flirted with the idea of open sourcing the game on and off since 2004. However, he has instead kept paying a bunch of money for it to remain up for years without much involvement from him, trusted select people with access to the source code so the game wouldn't die while he waited to decide what to do, (that was a huge deal for him) and for long stretches of time he has preferred that it remain down than up and in the hands of whoever. So, although he might reference that as a possibility from time to time, I wouldn't hold your breath on that one - It's rather evident to me that he likes the idea of possibly doing something with Wyvern in the future and, even though that seems rather unlikely to come to pass, at this point, I don't see him giving up that possibility after holding on to it for so long. Although, this is just my personal opinion - I can't say for sure what Rhialto will or will not do... obviously.
  #78  
Old 01-31-2013, 08:50 PM
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Arilou, everything you say makes me sad, but makes a lot of sense.

I am especially saddened that what you said makes it clear I will never have the opportunity to dive into his code . There is so much going on in wyvern & R is so known, it would have been so cool learn from his work.

I was definitely unaware that all the wizard content was owned by the individual wizards. That's very good of R.
  #79  
Old 01-31-2013, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arilou View Post
It's not that simple with that kind of content. The game has ownership of a lot of artwork and arch files, but there's an overwhelming amount in private wizard directories that wizards have chosen not to submit to the game (e.g. if a monster appears in a random dungeon it means a wizard turned it over to the game, but if it doesn't then chances are that they retain the rights to it). Meanwhile, very few maps actually belong to the game. Aside from the redone New Verden, Mage Guild, and Temple of Life maps there's just the world map itself and some really old ones like Minath Elion, (minus the new house and ruins maps) Alaria (minus my redos) that one King'd Road Inn map that was there before I redid it, the Ziggurat, the ant hill, the light house outside New Verden, the old (not the new) untrainer, Tornaum, (minus Teshuvah's redo) and fae Wynston (without my new graveyard dungeon).
This is more than enough. I really only want the game engine and a small group of maps to be released. The purpose of the maps is to be an example of how to do things. People could then build their own game on top of this framework.

Who knows what type of game they might build (steampunk, sci-fi, fantasy, historical fiction, etc.), but whatever it may be one thing would be perfectly clear: It would not be Wyvern.

When I wrote my previous post, I was hoping for the following to be released:
  • Majority of the source code
  • ****ie tower
  • New Verden (and not even the whole NV)
  • World Map
  • Untrainer
  • A Random Dungeon
  • (Preferably) One guild w/o the guild quest.
  • (Preferably) One LQ (doesn't even need the LQ boss)

I think this would cover enough bases to give prospective game developers a good idea on how to do things.

Yes it would be semi-competitive with wyvern, but I think the cooperative aspects (others independently improving on the game engine) would outweigh the competitiveness. Wyvern would take on a similar role to Half-Life.
  #80  
Old 01-31-2013, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergy View Post
This is more than enough. I really only want the game engine and a small group of maps to be released. The purpose of the maps is to be an example of how to do things. People could then build their own game on top of this framework.
I am aware that you were suggesting this, but you were suggesting this on the basis that there would still be a Wyvern as you repeated again in your latest post...

Quote:
Yes it would be semi-competitive with wyvern, but I think the cooperative aspects (others independently improving on the game engine) would outweigh the competitiveness. Wyvern would take on a similar role to Half-Life.
Therefore, my point was that it wouldn't be competitive with Wyvern as there is no way Rhialto would put himself in that situation. Again, the only way you would ever get an open source Wyvern is if he gave up on running the game himself and put it out there on the hopes that someone would step up to keep it alive in some form or another. In which case, you would potentially have one or more people who take the game engine and try to do something with it; whether it's trying to replicate Wyvern or trying to use it as the basis of their own game. However, you would not have the Wyvern anymore. Instead, you're unknowingly advocating for the death of the game, as it is known, in exchange for an open source MMO game engine, which is kind of silly to me as there are plenty out there already that you can use to create the kinds of games you want, even if the game you want to create is similar to Wyvern. Hell, one of Wyvern's biggest influences, Crossfire, is completely open source and has already been used to create forks such as Daimonin which I believe is or, at least was, open source as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergy View Post
When I wrote my previous post, I was hoping for the following to be released:
  • Majority of the source code
  • ****ie tower
  • New Verden (and not even the whole NV)
  • World Map
  • Untrainer
  • A Random Dungeon
  • (Preferably) One guild w/o the guild quest.
  • (Preferably) One LQ (doesn't even need the LQ boss)
I don't know what the second one is supposed to be. Do you mean the tutorial tower? If so, that's in Legolas' directory and only he can consent to releasing it. Also, there are no non-wizard live quests and with the exception of random dungeons (there's not "a" random dungeon, there's just random dungeons as all the maps are randomly generated by the rd code) the non-updated untrainer, and the paladin's guild, all of those things were built using various content from our wizard base. So you'd get a bunch of corrupted maps if they didn't come with certain directories. New Verden is especially an issue as, even though it's in the general files it's twice been redone by two different wizards who added a bunch of wizard content that primarily came from their respective directories.
 


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