The Wyvern 'Tier' System

[Kama]

For those of you familiar with D&D, I'm sure you can already guess where I'm going with this. For those of you that aren't, let me break it down for you.

In the Dungeons & Dragons community, there's evolved a tier rating system for the different character classes one can play. Each class is rated on a scale of Tier 1 through 5, with 1 being the best "overall" classes in the game.

Now, I'm going to steal this from a post on another site, but here's a basic overview of the system:

Originally Posted by JaronK

The Tier System

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

With some tweaking, I'd love to see something like this adapted to the Wyvern classes ('guilds'), so with that in mind - that's exactly what I'm going to set out to do.

I'll see if I can write something up to make the Tier system more relevant to Wyvern, despite it being pretty applicable as it stands.

In the meantime, what considerations do you think need to be taken to determine where each Guild (and possibly even extending to Guild/Race combo) falls in the Wyvern world?

[Shootout]

Looking at the descriptions, the top tier class would be able to do "absolutely everything." What is absolutely everything in Wyvern? As far as I can tell the only distinctions that can be made are the ability to deal damage and the ability to stay alive. All Wyvern activities (questing, RDing, PKing) fall under those two in differing quantities.

If we are considering dealing damage and staying alive as our criteria, that brings about another problem concerning the latter. Many guilds rely on the same armor and the same items to stay alive. For example, my paladin and my caveman both use resistance potions, healing potions, resistance rings, DSMs, skull shields, cloaks of the lion, amulets of the eagle, unicorn horns.. I could go on. So if the items used aren't guild exclusive, it seems that the ability of a character to stay alive seems more tied to their race (my giant has more HP, my human can mana shield) How do we rate guilds on their survivability, then?

As far as weapon types and damage types go, most guilds tend to be about equal, except for archers. Rogues also do pierce damage like archers do, but end game they have gem weapons to take the edge over platinum bow/bolts or the guild specific arrows/bow.

In spite of all this uncertainty, I'd hastily throw together

[Caveman, Axeman, Paladin, Mage]
[Monk, Rogue, Ranger]





[Archer]

Rouges, Rangers, and Monks are a notch down because of armor restrictions, or lackluster guild bonuses. All three classes miss out on platinum. I'm not sure how their guild armor stacks up versus DSMs. If they are equal or better, they could possibly be included in the above tier. I don't know much about this

Monks do get a big healing bonus, but they are the only melee guild to not get a health bonus. Rogues do pierce damage and have a relatively small HP bonus. Their addition bonuses are in skills that aren't too game breaking, such as lock picking and hurled. Rangers get a solid bonus to HP (50% for whipsman) but they don't have secondary skill bonus like Paladins (strength) or Axeman (Strength and FW.) One could argue that death is that skill, but it pigeon holes them in to using the magic whip spell. If not using magic whip, it could be argued that the death magic allows for vampire blading, which could be true, but strength and FW just directly benefit a character without any additional effort. Conjurers are bleh.

I don't mean to sound discouraging, I am actually wildly interested in this. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what exactly it is that you are considering so I can analyze it more in depth.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Shootout

Looking at the descriptions, the top tier class would be able to do "absolutely everything." What is absolutely everything in Wyvern? As far as I can tell the only distinctions that can be made are the ability to deal damage and the ability to stay alive. All Wyvern activities (questing, RDing, PKing) fall under those two in differing quantities.

If we are considering dealing damage and staying alive as our criteria, that brings about another problem concerning the latter. Many guilds rely on the same armor and the same items to stay alive. For example, my paladin and my caveman both use resistance potions, healing potions, resistance rings, DSMs, skull shields, cloaks of the lion, amulets of the eagle, unicorn horns.. I could go on. So if the items used aren't guild exclusive, it seems that the ability of a character to stay alive seems more tied to their race (my giant has more HP, my human can mana shield) How do we rate guilds on their survivability, then?

As far as weapon types and damage types go, most guilds tend to be about equal, except for archers. Rogues also do pierce damage like archers do, but end game they have gem weapons to take the edge over platinum bow/bolts or the guild specific arrows/bow.

In spite of all this uncertainity, I'd hastily throw together

[Caveman, Axeman, Paladin, Mage, Monk]
[Rogue, Ranger]





[Archer]

I don't mean to sound discouraging, I am actually wildly interested in this. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what exactly it is that you are considering so I can analyze it more in depth.

I disagree with the archer ranking. I'd put it at a tier three, reason being that any decent archer can do practically anything if they're careful.

Like solo Hades at level 19.

The only real problem is PvP. Player movement patterns aren't patterned (at least the ones who realize you don't run straight at the archer).

[Shootout]

The extra spaces I suppose were an exaggeration, but I put them below the others not because of their ability to survive but the caution they must take to do so. As far as bonuses go, they get neither a bonus to HP or MP, the only guild besides monks to do that. Theoretically, they would therefore have a harder time taking damage than the classes I put above them. Their style of play, again theoretically, likely would slow down the ability to train, relatively to meleers at least.

I suppose a talented player with an insightful build could prove this wrong, so this brings me back to the rating system. Are we assuming an average player in X class, or the best possible X class player?

And I was going to reference the scores list as evidence of how archers trained slower than others, but using that list to discuss the current metagame would I guess be inaccurate. So much has changed over the years, so.

[Morwen]

I was assuming that it was at optimal performance. Otherwise each of the classes could be ranked much lower simply because someone can't play that style very well.

[jezrald]

Personally, I'd suggest ranking based on "a decent build" -- i.e., someone playing with a reasonable eye to their build, a fair amount of experience, and so forth.

For what it's worth, my own experience with archers is that they are capable of soloing nearly anything -- but slowly, due to a combination of caution and low DPS.

(Sadly, gem bolts do not appear to be in the future of Wyvern at all.)

[igorith]

I just have one question for this whole post: What version of DnD is this "Tier system" based off of? I am a 3.0/3.5 DM and I have never seen anything like this. Is this something from the actual rulebooks or is this something put together by someone else entirely?

[thedib]

I've never seen it either, not too hard to track the general idea of it though, just imo I think this is going to be very hard to apply to wyvern, dnd revolves around restrictions wyverns all about freedom. As for what's more op than others im too dated on the game to have a valid opinion on where what stands

[Kama]

Originally Posted by igorith

I just have one question for this whole post: What version of DnD is this "Tier system" based off of? I am a 3.0/3.5 DM and I have never seen anything like this. Is this something from the actual rulebooks or is this something put together by someone else entirely?

It's based on 3.5e, and player-created. ^^

I can dig up a few links if you'd like, as well - including explanations of why each class is placed where it is.

In fact, here you go - Why each class is in it's tier.

[Baurus]

I figured I might as well throw in my thoughts on this. Some people seem to be hating on the humans. My main is Riordan and im sure a lot of you know who I am from "Town Crier" shouts about LQ's and quests and such. But yes I think if anything in this tier system then the Axeman, Cavemen, Paladin, and Mage are the tier 1's.

Axeman and Cavemen make superb tanks and with a bit of healing skill and some high armor they can absorb an insane amount of damage and barely feel it as much as other classes. Frost giant axemen and stone giant and dwarven cavemen are all nice choices. (i'd throw in human as an axeman since Rio is an axer but all he does is hit hard, and fast. he is not a big tank by any means compared to fellow giants.)

Paladins are a bit of a jack-of-all-trades here as they hit hard with a nice sword, and can take damage and they can even heal themselves (like spell heal, please exclude pots)! they can cast some nice healing spells and can mana shield quite efficiently allowing them to make quite a nice cleric/warrior class.

Mages are just.... I'm not going to waste my breath they just need strength to carry stuff.... anything else they can do. XD

[Kama]

Originally Posted by Baurus

I figured I might as well throw in my thoughts on this. Some people seem to be hating on the humans. My main is Riordan and im sure a lot of you know who I am from "Town Crier" shouts about LQ's and quests and such. But yes I think if anything in this tier system then the Axeman, Cavemen, Paladin, and Mage are the tier 1's.

Axeman and Cavemen make superb tanks and with a bit of healing skill and some high armor they can absorb an insane amount of damage and barely feel it as much as other classes. Frost giant axemen and stone giant and dwarven cavemen are all nice choices. (i'd throw in human as an axeman since Rio is an axer but all he does is hit hard, and fast. he is not a big tank by any means compared to fellow giants.)

Paladins are a bit of a jack-of-all-trades here as they hit hard with a nice sword, and can take damage and they can even heal themselves (like spell heal, please exclude pots)! they can cast some nice healing spells and can mana shield quite efficiently allowing them to make quite a nice cleric/warrior class.

Mages are just.... I'm not going to waste my breath they just need strength to carry stuff.... anything else they can do. XD

Aha! We're making progress now, I think.

[Baurus]

Rarkvar you're just upset because playing as your mage isn't as easy as it used to be and that's cool because now we play all the time! Don't let the spell nerfs kill the fun that Wyvern delivers. Even as nerfed as you are now with some spells you know that V can still solo just about anything except maybe the Olympiad.

And quit whining about Omnimagics. You know if me (Rio) or Belray ever win one it's yours for a good price. Just be patient you'll get them.

[igorith]

I'm not trying to stray from the original post topic, but isn't a large part of DnD class power/potency up to the discretion of the DM? If a player is too overpowered, you add something to gameplay to sort-of cripple them, and if a player is too underpowered, you add something to gameplay to make them more powerful. I've heard this same sort of idea that you're talking about from other 3.5 DMs, but to me this kinda seems like you assume the DM you're playing with doesn't have any common sense. When I hear this kinda of thing, I get kinda confused as to why so many people seem hell-bent on maxing their damage output.

[Unknown]

Hello... i want to talk about what for me was a tier 1 (tier 1+ but by far!)...

Halfling-Conjurers.

My main alt was named Hail, l think he was lvl 30 by the time i quit, I made it to the 6th best Halfling and top 50 players... or did i get lvl 31?? i don't remember honestly, it's been so long...

Any way back to the point. My internet connection by the time i used to play was terrible slow so i had to relay on a strong combination of "REALLY REALLY hard to kill" and "easy to play". After LVL 16, lvling up with this combination was a piece of cake!, perfect mix between additional mana (for mana shield) death bonus (for magic whip and vampire blade) and low magic skill penalization. The fire, shock or cold blade used to be really usefull!! i think i used fire blade on my magic whip. Oh! an be able to bless your full equipment!! god bless BLESS (and resist curse)!!!! I dont know if it was a bug, but ranges did were able to use Platinum armor.

After getting to HOLF i was able to be 100% immune to fire, cold and shock recoil and nearly immune to curse all at the same time while holding on 2 acid resist rings and perfect dodge equipment *i did enjoyed doing RD solo missions a lot . I didn't use scrolls (ress scroll now and then when stuffs went wrong), and only used mana potions for LQ or situations of really bad lag. (sorry i think i also used str potions, i don't remember that well :S)
My first alt whit this set was actually a human that was banned... and i must say, the Halfling-Summoner was way more effective.

I tested every race and nearly every guild. my overall ranking is:
-Mages are fun to play... but when you have a slow internet connection they die just too easily (Halfling, humman or pixie tier 2+)...
-Stone giants are easy to play (cave man tier 2+)... but there is not much thinking regarding how to use the skill points and how to set your grow strategy.
-Paladin human used to be strong till they took out healing (used to be 2+, by the time i took off -3)...
-Axeman, fun and easy to play melee guild, a little more tricky than caveman and need more thinking (tier 2). Nevertheless if melee is what you want, i think caveman will win the fight.
-Rogues, i think i wasn't able to fully understand their hidden potential, same with monks raskasha, humman or halfling (tier -4)...
-Monks hydra on the other hand... that was fun to play! but been 2x2 size for me was too much of a problem, but i think with a faster internet connection this should also be a wining combination (tier 1- or 2+)
-finally Archers... for me archers is a guild you need to be role playing in order to enjoy, they just suck really bad, by far archers are the worst guild...

To end, about halfling Conjurers...
Downside is that I didn't kill as fast as I wanted. Was able to win few LQ though... but comparing with other players at my lvl I think I was a slow killer... But it's a small prize to pay if you are able to stay alive.