New Wyvern Terrain

[kiez]

Well, since the servers are currently down, this seems like as good a time as ever to put up this suggestion. For a long time, I have wondered why there are no lava RDs (that I know of). However, that is not my suggestion, While it is cool, that strikes me as simply too dangerous. Anyway, that thought led me to a question, what would the breakable walls be in a lava RD? I couldn't really think of any material in the game that would make sense both as something that would fit the theme, and as something that would make sense as something that would be difficult to break in reality. So I thought, why not make a new material? Hence my suggestion.

Obsidian

I think this would be an interesting addition for several reasons, and here are a few. For one, it fits well with the theme. After all, obsidian is a compound formed by intense heat, and is almost always found/created by fire, specifically lave. Secondly, it has a very "adventuring" feel to it, and for no small reason. Obsidian is considered a "dark" stone. Ever heard of "Dark Towers" in any mythological based story? You can bet that it was probably made of obsidian. So, in terms of the "feel" of it, obsidian is a good fit with the overall scope of Wyvern. Last, it could be used practically in caves and dungeons as something to hide hidden rooms as opposed to a false wall like is the norm.

My thought for how it would work is, it would essentially be the same as breakable dirt, with a few differences. For one, instead of being clearly discernable as a breakable wall, it should look nearly the same as cave walls, in order to fully utilize its function as a "hiding wall" so to speak. Since obsidian is generally a very tough material due to its high viscosity, it would be cool to see it be a liitle more difficult to break through than dirt.

That's pretty much it. Although I had some ideas for Obsidian Weaponry, I figure weapons have been thought out to death, so I will not post that. Any feedback would be nice, although please do at least a quick Wikipedia search on what Obsidian is before commenting, as my thought is not to chalk it up to be some magical stone full of power -Wyvern has enough stuff filled with grand power to last a lifetime. Most of us just don't search enough. But rather my thought is to introduce a simple landscape feature that can be put in the game to fill in the lack of breakable walls in lava areas. Although who knows, a discussion on introducing obsidian into the game could lead to Obsidian Weapons, Drags, Gems, and a ton of other ideas that could help spice up lava filled maps a little more.

[jezrald]

I like the core simplicity of this idea: add a new material. And the simplicity with which it can be started is also good: just add a new wall type, much like dirt walls, but with different images and, perhaps, different characteristic HP ranges.

Any thoughts on resistances? I'd say it should be very highly resistant to fire, perhaps slightly resistant to cold, as well as low to moderate resistance to shock damage. Not exactly sure what's normal for dirt walls, but I'd say heavy pierce resist, 0 or even negative smash resist, and low or non-existent cut resist. (And, of course, must be destroyed without too much difficulty by the Digging and Excavation spells, although it's likely to be tougher than normal dirt walls.)

[kiez]

My thoughts are definitely pro fire resist and weapon resist. I don't know about cold, but considering it is a mineral, shock resist seems like a good idea. I think dig and excavation spells maybe shouldn't work too easily, since you don't really "dig" for obsidian rather than mine it.

[jezrald]

Well, granted, they should definitely take longer (maybe a lot longer) than on dirt, but they should actually work, that's pretty much all I meant :P

[kiez]

I agree with you on that point. I even thought that it might drop obsidian as loot, rarely, which could be sold. Or forged. Or not.

[Rarkvar]

Did that in about five minutes.
I like the color, but as you said there would have to be a different image, seeing as how I doubt obsidian would form in a solid square such as the earth walls.

As for the resists, come on guys, its a wall, in a random dungeon? It shouldn't be impossible to destroy.

The standard (or at least in the map editor) hp for an earth wall is 30, so if that is true (in some instances it is not) then changing that value to probably 500 would be more realistic, maybe 1,000 tops. As for fire resists, its a mineral made from fire, that is hardened when cooled if my understanding is correct, so why would it be massively resistant to fire? Obsidian weapons would have to be smelted down with lava. A 30% fire resist would be decent for this. It is a stone forged from fire, so it could have maybe 70% cold resists. As for shock, 60% seems fair. Sure its electricity, but theres a difference in hooking wire to an obsidian rock and sending volts of electricity to it, and hurling a bolt of lighting at a rock. I'm sure it would explode.

As for the melee resists, 75% smash resists, 50% stab/pierce, and 25% cut resists.

None to acid of course, seeing as how I'm sure acid could disintegrate the obsidian.

As far as weaponry goes, my idea would be, stronger than an ember weapon, weaker than a ruby weapon. Will obviously deal fire damage.

Thoughts?

[kiez]

I love it! Oh my gosh that is cool! My thoughts, if weaponry is to be dragged into this, (oops, I didn't mean to start that), they should be relatively weak, but light, and MAYBE deal fire damage. I say maybe, because my thoughts when starting this were to instead have it increase Find Weakness or do something that is the equivalent, because of the following reason. Obsidian is a tough material whose strength means that it can be made into a blade that is incredibly thin. It is currently being used in surgery because of this. As a result of its thinness, it can slip through armor. Thus, I am now thinking instead of +FW, it could negate some armor. With this benefit, I would think that adding fire damage could be overpowered. Either way, if weapons were to be made, I think the thinness could mean that it is one handed, but is not very durable.

Back to your map image. WOW! That is awesome!

[Frosten]

This sounds a ton like a themed RD, which is something that I know the wizards have stated is something they would like to implement. before anything can happen, the RD code has to be fixed up some apparently such that they do not grant such a massive amount of xp/gold.

[goonyton]

Have you guys ever seen obsidian? It is glass. Yes, it is extremely sharp. Give me 10 minutes and I can knap you a knife out of it that is sharper than steel. Depending on what you are cutting it wears down pretty fast though and if hit wrong shatters. It is hard to attach to a handle, so most of the time you end up holding a piece of glass in your hand with 1 sharp edge on the side away from your hand.

For stats think glass.

Easy to smash, very hard to cut or pierce. Shock has no effect, Fire no effect until you get it extremely hot and it sort of bubbles and melts. Cold makes it more brittal, but in itself does not damage it.

EDIT: Fixed some spelling.

[kiez]

Yes, obsidian is basically glass, but that isn't the point here. However, its properties are ones I would agree with you on.

[goonyton]

Originally Posted by kiez

Yes, obsidian is basically glass, but that isn't the point here. However, its properties are ones I would agree with you on.

You were wanting stats, I help fill that in. Yes weapons can and have been made out of it. When figuring how the weapons work, keep in mind glass. For special items obsidian does has it place, including uses in the real world. You need a special weapon to kill a certain quest monster because its hide is too strong obsidian would be a good choice. Also might be a good choice for a special tool in preparing hides where you need a very sharp, but not very durable knife.

I agree with you on the walls a new type of breakable wall that looks like the rest of the wall. That would be a nice addition.

[kiez]

This whole post is very rambling. New paragraph means new topic. I could be jumping anywhere related to obsidian. Be prepared.

I am glad you cleared that up a little. After your first post, I was afraid people would chalk up Obsidian to being little more than black glass, which, in a way it is. However there is so much more you can do with it. It would be a shame if the possibility were passed up simply because it was "glass".

I am also glad that you picked up on the fact that Obsidian's qualities bear some unique characteristics. It could be very effective in armor/defense override (ORCUS), but is very true that it is not durable, because blades made of it are very thin. In this sense it almost balances itself out, because you pay a fairly significant amount of money (Maybe 3k for a dagger, 8k for everything else) in auction for a plain Obsidian Weapon that can be extremely powerful depending on the situation, but at the same time lasts only a short while.

Another question would be, "Can you repair weapons made from it?" My thought would be not without magic. If you can imagine taking an extremely damaged piece of extra-strong glass, heating it, and hitting it repeatedly with a heavy hammer.... yeah. That would probably break it.

While I am continuing this rant that is going 5 million different directions, Rarkvar has PMd me a second image that I hope he posts here, which shows some potential Obsidian Golems (Darker Iron Golems with red eyes - What if they had heat recoil?). This brought up an new question. Should these guys drop slabs or some equivalent drop? I don't know. I feel like either the golems or the walls should, but not both. Obsidian should be a fairly difficult material to obtain, like mithril, and making monsters AND the terrain drop it certainly is not in line with that thinking.

Then we have money to consider. Natural obsidian, if it appears might be worth, what, an average of 100 gold if it is undamaged? What about slabs - 5k shop value? I mentioned weapons somewhere earlier in this post as well.

Going back to the terrain considerations, what if it appears as something besides a wall? Does it slow? Does it damage? I think no on the first one, but fire damage to the second question. After all, it is going to be very hot if you find it naturally.

Of course, the idea for Obsidian Terrain lies at the center of all of this, and without it, the rest of it is unlikely to happen. I hope we all don't forget this in our excitement over new weapons and monsters. While that is more fun, we have tons of that already, and not as many terrain variants, and the variant I showed above in my post that is accompanied by an image certainly is new terrain AND adds a new dimension to battles.

Phew. That was a long rant. If one of you moderators wants to delete it, please let me know that it is unacceptable instead, so I can rearrange my thoughts, but still have the original content so I don't have to go through it all and remember everything I said again.

[goonyton]

Originally Posted by kiez

This whole post is very rambling. New paragraph means new topic. I could be jumping anywhere related to obsidian. Be prepared.
....
Phew. That was a long rant. If one of you moderators wants to delete it, please let me know that it is unacceptable instead, so I can rearrange my thoughts, but still have the original content so I don't have to go through it all and remember everything I said again.

Looks good to me, I do not see why a MOD would want to mess with the post.

I think you have a good idea. Below I will relate what I know about Obsidian. In game you can do what you want, but there is a lot that can be done here just coping the real world.

As a weapon
In the real world I know of two ways to make a blade or knife out of Obsidian. You get a piece of Obsidian the size of your hand or smaller and you can make one or more sharp edges by breaking the Obsidian against another rock(knapping). What you end up with is often something you hold in the palm of your hand. The sharpness makes it great for cleaning hides. Not so great in a fight, it is two short and the way you have to hold it, you would be ahead to use your fist.

The other way is to make a lot of small very thin pieces with sharp edges and bind them between two boards. I have never seen that done, but I have heard of it.

Where Obsidian is great is arrow and spear heads. The Indians around where I live have made and lost lots of these. I have found hundreds and some of them are real pieces of art. I have never used one as intended, but it looks like it should work.

Repairing Obsidian I doubt it. If it shatters you have nothing to repair, you could use the pieces and make the second kind of weapon above, that is about it. If the edge gets damaged the only way to repair it is to reknap it. At best you end up with something much smaller than what you started with.

Terrain considerations.

Where does the idea of it needing to be hot come from? Infact to create Obsidian the lava needs to be cooled very fast, other wise it crystalizes and you end up with something else. The biggest Obsidian flow in the world is a short trip from my house and it is beside a lake. If you ask a geologist they will tell it when it was formed the lake was bigger and the flow was under the lake.

Walking across it is not fun, think shale with a lot of sharp edges and ups and downs. Does it damage, yes. It will ruin a pair of shoes very fast and if you fall you will hurt yourself, most of the time cut, but pierce damage is possible to.

Walking on Obsidian is very slow and has a lot of cut damage. No fire damage unless it is a hot day, then you may burn yourself, but that is nothing compared to the cut damage.

Ingame
I really like the idea of an Obsidian flow terrain(such as lava, snow ect.) It would very rare, but I could see a quest area with it. Walking on Obsidian is very slow and has a lot of cut damage. If you wear Iron boots or the like you should be fairly safe from damage.

As for weapons, spears and arrows would be very in keeping with the real world.

For creating weapons, that would be a different skill called 'Flint knapping'. No tools are needed other than two rocks and Obsidian or flint. Expect to hurt yourself from time to time while making stuff. If you have some leather on hand you can hurt yourself less. I only see spears and arrows being made as weapons and scrappers for those who collect hides.

Obsidian golem, sounds like a good idea. I do not see them dropping anything that can be used to make weapons.

To get Obsidian for making weapons would be a mini quest to an Obsidian flow.

That is my three cents.

[Rarkvar]

Originally Posted by goonyton

Have you guys ever seen obsidian? It is glass. Yes, it is extremely sharp. Give me 10 minutes and I can knap you a knife out of it that is sharper than steel. Depending on what you are cutting it wears down pretty fast though and if hit wrong shatters. It is hard to attach to a handle, so most of the time you end up holding a piece of glass in your hand with 1 sharp edge on the side away from your hand.

For stats think glass.

Easy to smash, very hard to cut or pierce. Shock has no effect, Fire no effect until you get it extremely hot and it sort of bubbles and melts. Cold makes it more brittal, but in itself does not damage it.

EDIT: Fixed some spelling.

I think I'm the only person who sat in Earth Science and tried to break the obsidian that we had. It's not as fragile as glass.

I think the resistances that I posted were decent when if you take into consideration a random dungeon with obsidian blocks for doors. No one is going to want to sit there and struggle to break one door. It would take ages to clear one floor. Now if you have two different types of obsidian that would make sense. Meaning, in wyvern earthblocks can have set hp, most of the time they have 30, but this number can be adjusted. Point, it's possible to have in one area, a block that takes you five hits to smash, and in another area there is a block that takes you 50 hits to smash.

In your quest "example", I would set the value to the obsidian on the upper end to maybe 3,000, that way the player spends much more time going through it. As for the ones near the demon lord, 500-1,000 would seem logical.

From everyones responses, it sounds like obsidian would be better in blade form. For rogues. Seeing as how if it's very hard to attach to a handle, then making a long sword out of it is won't work. Daggers are good stab/pierce damage.

So I believe if there were an obsidian material/theme in the game, the walls would be more durable than the regular earth walls, it should have decent, but not too high, fire resistance, higher cold resists, and slightly less shock resists. High durability to smash and stab damage, lower durability to cut damage.

Oh, and kiez wanted me to post this

[kiez]

The more I think about it (I haven't slept tonight...), the more I am starting to agree that Obsidian should not be super difficult to chop/blast through like initially thought, even though I don't think I verbalized that. Reading the critique that Rarkvar gave regarding the function of Obsidian in my sample map really stuck me. I wanted Obsidian to be some super-dense substance that took considerable (but not outright ridiculous) time to break through, but Rarkvar is right. In some cases, less health/shorter break time is more enjoyable and/or fits better with the game. I hope that this stays in (at least) my mind while this thread continues. It is all ultimately about being enjoyable.